"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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Wilshire

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« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2018, 02:07:11 pm »
FWIW "dead but not done" to mean can only mean that kellhus is dead in literally every possible sense of the world, but that he still has plans in action. I am certain there will be no further actions committed by kellhus, because yes, the chorae destroyed him utterly. The further clarification that he is 'not in the outside' confirms this beyond questioning.

Kellhus has gone the way of his father before him - dead, removed from the story, but with some simmering pots left on the oven that might still finish even postmortem without further interaction.

Zaudunyanicon is from whence the referenced information came - that thing some of us put together and got Bakker to show up and talk at last summer.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Cyx

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« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2018, 04:43:23 pm »
Where does Bakker confirm he isn't in the Outside?

I get that Ajokli seemingly can't find him...  that doesn't necessarily mean K isn't Outside.

themerchant

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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2018, 04:47:05 pm »
Yeah this is something i've been wondering about.

How do we know Ajokli can even sense the outside with the No-god active.

Just cause Ajokli is looking for Kellhus doesn't mean he isn't in the outside. Although he is probably in a head.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2018, 04:51:35 pm »
How do we know Ajokli can even sense the outside with the No-god active.
The world is not closed yet. Ajokli is a being of the Outside, without access to it, he shouldn't exist, the way I understand it.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2018, 05:34:27 pm »
Kellhus has gone the way of his father before him - dead, removed from the story, but with some simmering pots left on the oven that might still finish even postmortem without further interaction.

Where's his soul? Destroyed? Food in Hell? Other? I don't recall salting destroying a soul, but it's been a while since I've read the books.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2018, 05:38:11 pm »
Isn't there something about chorae destroying souls? Maybe I made it up lol. If not, I don't know where Kellhus went :P .
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2018, 06:46:12 pm »
Isn't there something about chorae destroying souls? Maybe I made it up lol. If not, I don't know where Kellhus went :P .
I remember nothing like this. They are just fatal for sorcerers in a fancy way.

H

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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2018, 07:56:23 pm »
Isn't there something about chorae destroying souls? Maybe I made it up lol. If not, I don't know where Kellhus went :P .

There is the unresolved issue of the second Decapitant.  We know, from what he does to Malowebi, that there is a functional use, they aren't mere trophies or decorations.  It's plausible he was not really even in the Golden Room, at least, not his soul.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

dragharrow

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« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2018, 05:29:50 am »
Isn't there something about chorae destroying souls? Maybe I made it up lol. If not, I don't know where Kellhus went

no way. Chorae do not destroy a soul and remove it from the game. If they did that would undermine the main metaphysical tension that drives all the factions in the story to go to war over damnation.

We have two inchoroi left, both mages through grafting. The entire purpose of the inchoroi's millennia long campaign through space was to avoid hell.

If they could pick up a chorae and have it incinerate their soul and send them to oblivion instead of hell they would have done it on the spot. They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god and just disappeared. No eternity in hell so all good. Maybe they slightly prefer the idea of killing the gods and living forever on Earwa as immortal bio freaks, but that's just a preference. Their guiding purpose is avoiding hell and they'd be happy to die on the spot if it meant avoiding damnation. Or similarly, think of all the failed attempts the nonmen investigated to find oblivion over hell.

In the books, lots of people are concerned by the likelihood they'll go to hell but mages are even more concerned. They fear they'll be damned the worst. If being burnt up by a chorae let you avoid that, then every mage would chill out about their eternal damnation, and also be obsessed with making sure the way they died was by chorae. Every school would have a ritual where old mages get chorae-ed to make sure they go to oblivion instead of hell. We don't see any of that. Akka talks constantly about how he's going to end up in hell, and he never says anything to indicate that he'd prefer dying by chorae than old age, for example.

FWIW "dead but not done" to mean can only mean that kellhus is dead in literally every possible sense of the world, but that he still has plans in action. I am certain there will be no further actions committed by kellhus, because yes, the chorae destroyed him utterly. The further clarification that he is 'not in the outside' confirms this beyond questioning.

I feel like it's the opposite. There's no way Kellhus found the rare treasure of oblivion.

-Either he's full on dead and he's in hell in the outside being munched on by demons.
-Or he's full on dead and he's in the outside munching on demons.
-Or he's not really dead, and he pulled some Daimos bullshit to keep himself on the inside. Maybe in the decapitant like people are saying.

But I always thought the idea that Kellhus cheated and is still in the inside in the decapitant or whatever was super crazy. I definitely thought he was done, at least story wise. He's dead and he's not going to be a driving factor anymore. But that requires him going to hell.

So if Bakker says he's not in the outside, that seems like a big reveal to me. That seems to strongly indicate that it's daimos trickery of some kind.


Kellhus has gone the way of his father before him - dead, removed from the story, but with some simmering pots left on the oven that might still finish even postmortem without further interaction.

Moenghus is definitely in the outside though. He's in hell getting eaten by demons. He didn't slip by the metaphysics and make it to oblivion.


Zaudunyanicon is from whence the referenced information came - that thing some of us put together and got Bakker to show up and talk at last summer.

Aw man, that's awesome. I really wish I could have made it. That sounds so fun
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 06:01:24 am by dragharrow »

TaoHorror

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« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2018, 12:39:33 pm »
They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god ...

"nonsense" ... love how you put it like that  ;D

Aw man, that's awesome. I really wish I could have made it. That sounds so fun

Agreed - I will definitely make the next one if/when it materializes. I'm much more comfortable and confident with my dietary conditions which made me too uneasy to make the trip, the wonderful support by this group notwithstanding.

I think many ( all? ) of us, whether we want to admit it or not, want to see more Kellhus in the next reads - it's more than just "liking" or "rooting" for the guy - he was the focus of 7 books! That's a serious commitment from the readers, so I don't beat myself up hoping he's more "not done" than "dead". That said, I'll accept whatever is coming.
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themerchant

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« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2018, 05:08:41 pm »
How do we know Ajokli can even sense the outside with the No-god active.
The world is not closed yet. Ajokli is a being of the Outside, without access to it, he shouldn't exist, the way I understand it.

It is to souls though, Mimara second baby was still born, the soul that encounters him goes no further.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2018, 07:32:25 pm »
It is to souls though, Mimara second baby was still born, the soul that encounters him goes no further.
It's a strange thing. Yes, the No-God does something with birth, though we don't know what. But just by being there it doesn't close the world. Sorcery is contingent on the Outside and still works, the Gods are able to act and were able in the First Apocalypse, I'm pretty sure Ciphrang can still be summoned, and also, as dragharrow succinctly put it above, if it was enough for the No-God to just exist to prevent souls from going to Hell (or, much less likely, Heaven), the whole Apocalypse and 144k thing would've been totally unnecessary.

Considering all of this, I don't think it is correct to say that the world is closed in any way.

MSJ

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« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2018, 10:14:18 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
It's a strange thing. Yes, the No-God does something with birth, though we don't know what. But just by being there it doesn't close the world. Sorcery is contingent on the Outside and still works, the Gods are able to act and were able in the First Apocalypse, I'm pretty sure Ciphrang can still be summoned, and also, as dragharrow succinctly put it above, if it was enough for the No-God to just exist to prevent souls from going to Hell (or, much less likely, Heaven), the whole Apocalypse and 144k thing would've been totally unnecessary.

Considering all of this, I don't think it is correct to say that the world is closed in any way.

All of that is true, just I have a thought on the above bolded. It's said/prophesied that once the population is below 144,000 then Earwa is shut from the Outside. Hence, the No-God. The means to reduce the population to below 144,000. That is the plan of the Consult/Mutilated, to free themselves of damnation. That number was never needed to raise the No-God, it is the goal.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2018, 10:23:34 pm »
That number was never needed to raise the No-God, it is the goal.
It wasn't my intention to imply that this number is needed to raise the No-God. My personal understanding as of right now is, when the number is reached, the effect of the No-God will reach some kind of critical mass and change the world. The Consult expects this change to shut the world from the Outside.

In essence, the number is just a technical threshold in the System that is the No-God.

MSJ

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« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2018, 11:55:56 pm »
@SmilerLoki, I wasn't implying that you meant that. Sorry, if it sounded that way. ;)

But, over the years discussing these books, many are confused as to what the prophecy about 144,000 was about. Just read a few threads and you'll get what I'm talking about.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,