"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2018, 12:58:22 am »
But, over the years discussing these books, many are confused as to what the prophecy about 144,000 was about. Just read a few threads and you'll get what I'm talking about.
My understanding of your post also was, it might be that the No-God itself is just a tool to reduce the population to the blessed 144k, with no other function. Which would mean the 144k is what needs to be achieved, not the No-God. Personally, i don't think so, as I've outlined above. But that's in no way certain, and is mainly based on the fact that the existence of the No-God even without the world being reduced to the 144k has a certain effect on the great cycle of souls, which involves the Outside. Additionally, there is that whole "invisible to the Gods" thing.

I take into account the facts themerchant have presented, but we differ in the level of significance we ascribe them.

themerchant

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« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2018, 03:04:13 am »
It is to souls though, Mimara second baby was still born, the soul that encounters him goes no further.
It's a strange thing. Yes, the No-God does something with birth, though we don't know what. But just by being there it doesn't close the world. Sorcery is contingent on the Outside and still works, the Gods are able to act and were able in the First Apocalypse, I'm pretty sure Ciphrang can still be summoned, and also, as dragharrow succinctly put it above, if it was enough for the No-God to just exist to prevent souls from going to Hell (or, much less likely, Heaven), the whole Apocalypse and 144k thing would've been totally unnecessary.

Considering all of this, I don't think it is correct to say that the world is closed in any way.

It stops all souls from going to the outside though.

The No-god has a shelf-life, exposing the code allows the no-god to make permanent the effect.

What do you think "the soul that encounters him goes no further" means in your context?

Obviously this is all speculation as no one really knows. For the purpose of debate i'll assume my weighting is correct (probably isn;t)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 03:06:59 am by themerchant »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2018, 04:10:25 am »
It stops all souls from going to the outside though.
It certainly would be one interpretation of that line. But the issue is, in the infamous Dream Celmomas believed himself to be carried to Gilgaol's Heaven, which is in contention with the proposed interpretation.

[EDIT] I really dislike that Dream since it contradicts many things that would otherwise be all but set in stone.

[EDIT] And also the one where the Heron-Spear misses.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 04:19:10 am by SmilerLoki »

MSJ

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« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2018, 02:18:15 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
My understanding of your post also was, it might be that the No-God itself is just a tool to reduce the population to the blessed 144k, with no other function. Which would mean the 144k is what needs to be achieved, not the No-God. Personally, i don't think so, as I've outlined above. But that's in no way certain, and is mainly based on the fact that the existence of the No-God even without the world being reduced to the 144k has a certain effect on the great cycle of souls, which involves the Outside. Additionally, there is that whole "invisible to the Gods" thing.

Bakker said in a Q&A that when the Inchies inoculated the Nonmen and it resulted in the death of the females;  that they then found a dread function for the No-God. I assume that means that no births will occur during the rise of the No-God.

I have seen theories upon theories about 144,000. It's the only reason I mentioned it. One, that during Akka's dream where Nayu is a wretch in line, being led to the Golden Room, that the Consult was feeding the No-God. And, once it had 144,000 souls it would rise. We now know that's patently false.

The Outside is not shut, correct. Bakker has even stated that the gods can function, as you've said. But, the No-God has stopped the cycle of souls, hence the still births. To shut the Outside, it would seem that the No-Gods purpose is to whittle the population down to 144,000. It's like a threshold needed to shut the Gods off from the Inside (Earwa).

Again, I never expect to get the how's of things, only the why's.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2018, 05:49:41 pm »
It stops all souls from going to the outside though.
It certainly would be one interpretation of that line. But the issue is, in the infamous Dream Celmomas believed himself to be carried to Gilgaol's Heaven, which is in contention with the proposed interpretation.

[EDIT] I really dislike that Dream since it contradicts many things that would otherwise be all but set in stone.

[EDIT] And also the one where the Heron-Spear misses.

Yeah we have some competing evidence and no idea how much weight to put on each.

themerchant

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« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2018, 05:54:11 pm »
It stops all souls from going to the outside though.
It certainly would be one interpretation of that line. But the issue is, in the infamous Dream Celmomas believed himself to be carried to Gilgaol's Heaven, which is in contention with the proposed interpretation.



Although the dragon said to seswatha that the No-god ate his soul. or tasted it, something like that. Although that's from the dreams as well, so just as unreliable. Plus it seems that might not have been Gilgaol but Ajokli.

I'm not too wedded to any interpetation but for the purpose of testing theories it's good to air them and see who can spot inconsistencies or add other titbits to make it more robust.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 05:56:42 pm by themerchant »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2018, 08:07:01 pm »
Although the dragon said to seswatha that the No-god ate his soul. or tasted it, something like that.
Skafra was even more cute about it, the exact quote is:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Warrior-Prophet", Chapter One, Anserca
hath tasted thy King’s passing, and he saith, ‘It is done.’
That doesn't necessarily mean the No-God in any way claimed Celmomas's soul, it might only mean that it was aware of his passing away.

Also, there is this tidbit from TTT's Glossary:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Thousandfold Thought", Encyclopedic Glossary
“[The] soul that encounters Him passes no further.”—A line from The Sagas referring to the Battleplain and the belief that all those who perish there remain trapped.
It outright states that this saying refers specifically to the Mengedda Plains, which is a known topos. Might be it's not that people who died there are trapped because of the No-God, it's that the Outside leaks in there, and with it the souls of those who died in the numerous battles of Mengedda.

I'm not too wedded to any interpetation but for the purpose of testing theories it's good to air them and see who can spot inconsistencies or add other titbits to make it more robust.
Surely!
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 08:19:41 pm by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2018, 12:11:49 pm »
Also, there is this tidbit from TTT's Glossary:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Thousandfold Thought", Encyclopedic Glossary
“[The] soul that encounters Him passes no further.”—A line from The Sagas referring to the Battleplain and the belief that all those who perish there remain trapped.
It outright states that this saying refers specifically to the Mengedda Plains, which is a known topos. Might be it's not that people who died there are trapped because of the No-God, it's that the Outside leaks in there, and with it the souls of those who died in the numerous battles of Mengedda.

Definitely an important footnote. We often use that line as gospel to be applied unilaterally, and the fact of still-born births during the NG reign as proof. The importance of that quote and the specificity is that the two are not necessarily connected.

Not necessarily disconnected either ;)
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2018, 07:47:32 pm »
I think it's reasonable to take the statement about passing no further at face value, especially regarding later quotes such as "you seek to starve the Gods" etc.
However, as Smiler also mentioned, the dreams add uncertainty about all this, especially given the possible ambiguity regarding whether it's actually Gilgaöl we see or Ajokli. I actually asked Bakker about this in the AMA and this was his answer
Quote
The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2018, 12:44:27 am »
"you seek to starve the Gods"
I always took that to mean after the world is shut. I.e. the world is shut, no souls go to the Outside, the Gods are starving.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2018, 02:19:31 am »
I think it's reasonable to take the statement about passing no further at face value, especially regarding later quotes such as "you seek to starve the Gods" etc.
However, as Smiler also mentioned, the dreams add uncertainty about all this, especially given the possible ambiguity regarding whether it's actually Gilgaöl we see or Ajokli. I actually asked Bakker about this in the AMA and this was his answer
Quote
The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.

Could the dreams have changed due to reality being rewritten? Given TWLW failing several times and the disruptions from lil' Kell may have rewritten the god(s) and they intervened differently in the past - like the Heron Spear now missing, etc. Which is interesting, if the Spear missed, what undid TNG the first time ...
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2018, 02:28:20 am »
Could the dreams have changed due to reality being rewritten? Given TWLW failing several times and the disruptions from lil' Kell may have rewritten the god(s) and they intervened differently in the past - like the Heron Spear now missing, etc. Which is interesting, if the Spear missed, what undid TNG the first time ...
That would be contingent on the Dreams being atemporal, which we have no way to confirm or refute.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2018, 12:14:45 pm »
Could the dreams have changed due to reality being rewritten? Given TWLW failing several times and the disruptions from lil' Kell may have rewritten the god(s) and they intervened differently in the past - like the Heron Spear now missing, etc. Which is interesting, if the Spear missed, what undid TNG the first time ...
That would be contingent on the Dreams being atemporal, which we have no way to confirm or refute.

Not necessarily, though I'm no expert to timelessness, ofc. If reality was changed in the past, could be the things dreamed about changed, therefore the dreams are updated ( but this timelessness stuff is a rabbit hole, then Akka would have always dreamed the updated dreams and not recall them ever being different, etc ).
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2018, 12:59:24 pm »
Not necessarily, though I'm no expert to timelessness, ofc. If reality was changed in the past, could be the things dreamed about changed, therefore the dreams are updated ( but this timelessness stuff is a rabbit hole, then Akka would have always dreamed the updated dreams and not recall them ever being different, etc ).
I believe we have a breakdown of communication somewhere. Reality doesn't change, the atemporal perspective changes. Like what happened with both White-Luck Warriors. What they saw from the atemporal perspective changed, but reality always had only one iteration.

[EDIT] Thinking more on it, the Dreams also perceive the No-God, which shouldn't be possible for something that has the atemporal perspective of the Outside, which is the thing that changes.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 01:08:36 pm by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2018, 01:29:56 pm »
What they saw from the atemporal perspective changed, but reality always had only one iteration.

FWIW, this is not what most people seem to be saying when talking about this subject. In fact, this may be the first time I've seem someone specifically say that reality exists as a stable fixture and remains unchanged.

So there is definitely miscommunication going on.
One of the other conditions of possibility.