"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2018, 01:35:39 pm »
FWIW, this is not what most people seem to be saying when talking about this subject. In fact, this may be the first time I've seem someone specifically say that reality exists as a stable fixture and remains unchanged.

So there is definitely miscommunication going on.
I outlined my thoughts on this matter (and some others) in a semi-concise fashion here:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2267.msg37243#msg37243
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 01:38:33 pm by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #76 on: September 18, 2018, 02:05:37 pm »
As so you did
From:
Reply #32 on: August 04, 2017, 06:10:25 pm
with baztek and duskweaver.
Good stuff ;) , right around the time you registered... Oh, it was your first post thread even.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2018, 02:16:28 pm »
Good stuff ;) , right around the time you registered... Oh, it was your first post thread even.
It's less impressive considering the fact that I've only created one thread to date. Though I do seem to advertise it more recently.

It's good to see some conclusions withstanding the trials of time. Of course, that's not to say anything is set in stone.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2018, 07:02:07 pm »
no way. Chorae do not destroy a soul and remove it from the game. If they did that would undermine the main metaphysical tension that drives all the factions in the story to go to war over damnation.

We have two inchoroi left, both mages through grafting. The entire purpose of the inchoroi's millennia long campaign through space was to avoid hell.

If they could pick up a chorae and have it incinerate their soul and send them to oblivion instead of hell they would have done it on the spot. They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god and just disappeared. No eternity in hell so all good. Maybe they slightly prefer the idea of killing the gods and living forever on Earwa as immortal bio freaks, but that's just a preference. Their guiding purpose is avoiding hell and they'd be happy to die on the spot if it meant avoiding damnation. Or similarly, think of all the failed attempts the nonmen investigated to find oblivion over hell.

I feel like it's the opposite. There's no way Kellhus found the rare treasure of oblivion.


-Either he's full on dead and he's in hell in the outside being munched on by demons.
-Or he's full on dead and he's in the outside munching on demons.
-Or he's not really dead, and he pulled some Daimos bullshit to keep himself on the inside. Maybe in the decapitant like people are saying.

But I always thought the idea that Kellhus cheated and is still in the inside in the decapitant or whatever was super crazy. I definitely thought he was done, at least story wise. He's dead and he's not going to be a driving factor anymore. But that requires him going to hell.

So if Bakker says he's not in the outside, that seems like a big reveal to me. That seems to strongly indicate that it's daimos trickery of some kind.

Agreed on all of this. I had pondered the Chorae possibility before -- wherein, perhaps, no one knew the annihilating effects of chorae -- but it simply lowers the stakes far, far too dramatically.

My thoughts are also identical regarding Kellhus. If he's not in the Outside, he's either in Oblivion or, somehow, still within the World. But having thought on it (since learning he wasn't in the Outside) I don't buy for one second that Kellhus got into Oblivion. Far too easy of a fate for him.

I actually have thread on this exact topic I'm working on but still haven't finished (it's gargantuan), but one of the things I've considered for quite a while is that when Kellhus went into the Outside and "seized the head on the pole", he indadvertantly fucked up something about the causality of his soul, in such in a manner that he is now forever doomed to live in the World (as some kind of disembodied spirit or something, a wight maybe, or a perhaps a "spirit" akin to Shauriatas).

I've also considered that, since the head on a pole seems to at least have connotations of a "sentience" which resides "behind the head", particularly considering RSB's Blind Brain Theory and his twisted version of "It thinks, therefore I am."

Who/what that "sentient head on the pole" might be I am not sure -- the God of Gods, perhaps -- or maybe Seswatha?

I find the latter is especially interesting given that text actually uses the term "Seswatha Homunculus"...

From wiki:
Quote
The assumption here is that there is a "little man" or "homunculus" inside the brain "looking at" the movie.The reason why this is a fallacy may be understood by asking how the homunculus "sees" the internal movie. The obvious answer is that there is another homunculus inside the first homunculus's "head" or "brain" looking at this "movie". But that raises the question of how this homunculus sees the "outside world". To answer that seems to require positing another homunculus inside this second homunculus's head, and so forth. In other words, a situation of infinite regress is created. The problem with the homunculus argument is that it tries to account for a phenomenon in terms of the very phenomenon that it is supposed to explain.

Could Kellhus, perhaps in a mistaken attempt to "come before his soul", have actually created a scenario in which he is now the homunculus?

It would be a fitting fate for the character, trapped in the World forever (and also invoking Luciferian or Satanic myth wherein Lucifer is cast down to the earth for all time, since he covets dominion over the material world). Just think of the Mandate catechism:

"Though you forfeit your soul, you gain the World."


« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 07:04:06 pm by Francis Buck »

Francis Buck

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« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2018, 07:08:33 pm »
no way. Chorae do not destroy a soul and remove it from the game. If they did that would undermine the main metaphysical tension that drives all the factions in the story to go to war over damnation.

We have two inchoroi left, both mages through grafting. The entire purpose of the inchoroi's millennia long campaign through space was to avoid hell.

If they could pick up a chorae and have it incinerate their soul and send them to oblivion instead of hell they would have done it on the spot. They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god and just disappeared. No eternity in hell so all good. Maybe they slightly prefer the idea of killing the gods and living forever on Earwa as immortal bio freaks, but that's just a preference. Their guiding purpose is avoiding hell and they'd be happy to die on the spot if it meant avoiding damnation. Or similarly, think of all the failed attempts the nonmen investigated to find oblivion over hell.

I feel like it's the opposite. There's no way Kellhus found the rare treasure of oblivion.


-Either he's full on dead and he's in hell in the outside being munched on by demons.
-Or he's full on dead and he's in the outside munching on demons.
-Or he's not really dead, and he pulled some Daimos bullshit to keep himself on the inside. Maybe in the decapitant like people are saying.

But I always thought the idea that Kellhus cheated and is still in the inside in the decapitant or whatever was super crazy. I definitely thought he was done, at least story wise. He's dead and he's not going to be a driving factor anymore. But that requires him going to hell.

So if Bakker says he's not in the outside, that seems like a big reveal to me. That seems to strongly indicate that it's daimos trickery of some kind.

Agreed on all of this. I had pondered the Chorae possibility before -- wherein, perhaps, no one knew the annihilating effects of chorae -- but it simply lowers the stakes far, far too dramatically.

My thoughts are also identical regarding Kellhus. If he's not in the Outside, he's either in Oblivion or, somehow, still within the World. But having thought on it (since learning he wasn't in the Outside) I don't buy for one second that Kellhus got into Oblivion. Far too easy of a fate for him.

I actually have a thread on this exact topic I'm working on but still haven't finished (it's gargantuan), but one of the things I've considered for quite a while is that when Kellhus went into the Outside and "seized the head on the pole", he indadvertantly fucked up something about the causality of his soul, in such in a manner that he is now forever doomed to live in the World (as some kind of disembodied spirit or something, a wight maybe, or a perhaps a "spirit" akin to Shauriatas).

I've also pondered about how the head on a pole seems to at least have connotations of a "sentience" which resides "behind the head", particularly considering RSB's Blind Brain Theory, invoking his twisted version of "It thinks, therefore I am."

Who/what that "sentient head on the pole" might be I am not sure -- the God of Gods, perhaps...or maybe Seswatha?

I find the latter an especially interesting candidate given that the text actually uses the term "Seswatha Homunculus"...

From wiki:
Quote
The assumption here is that there is a "little man" or "homunculus" inside the brain "looking at" the movie. The reason why this is a fallacy may be understood by asking how the homunculus "sees" the internal movie. The obvious answer is that there is another homunculus inside the first homunculus's "head" or "brain" looking at this "movie". But that raises the question of how this homunculus sees the "outside world". To answer that seems to require positing another homunculus inside this second homunculus's head, and so forth. In other words, a situation of infinite regress is created. The problem with the homunculus argument is that it tries to account for a phenomenon in terms of the very phenomenon that it is supposed to explain.

Could Kellhus, perhaps in a mistaken attempt to "come before his soul", have actually created a scenario in which he is now the homunculus (which so far as we know is in fact trapped in the World)?

It would be a fitting fate for the character, trapped in the World forever (and could be compared to certain Luciferian myth, wherein Lucifer is cast down to the earth for all time, since he covets dominion over the material world). Just think of the Mandate catechism:

"Though you forfeit your soul, you gain the World."

I'm actually more drawn to the idea that Kellhus, rather than find some rest or even damnation in the Outside, instead actually acquires a perverse semblance of immortality, and even becoming the "prime mover of souls", but in turn also succumbs to a fate potentially worse than death from which he has no hope of escape.

"The Logos is without beginning or end."
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 07:17:07 pm by Francis Buck »

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2018, 03:15:11 am »
I actually have a thread on this exact topic I'm working on but still haven't finished (it's gargantuan), but one of the things I've considered.....
That, sir, is what's known in the broadcasting biz as a "deep tease"! Can't wait!!
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