"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2018, 01:35:39 pm »
FWIW, this is not what most people seem to be saying when talking about this subject. In fact, this may be the first time I've seem someone specifically say that reality exists as a stable fixture and remains unchanged.

So there is definitely miscommunication going on.
I outlined my thoughts on this matter (and some others) in a semi-concise fashion here:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2267.msg37243#msg37243
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 01:38:33 pm by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #76 on: September 18, 2018, 02:05:37 pm »
As so you did
From:
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2017, 06:10:25 pm »
with baztek and duskweaver.
Good stuff ;) , right around the time you registered... Oh, it was your first post thread even.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2018, 02:16:28 pm »
Good stuff ;) , right around the time you registered... Oh, it was your first post thread even.
It's less impressive considering the fact that I've only created one thread to date. Though I do seem to advertise it more recently.

It's good to see some conclusions withstanding the trials of time. Of course, that's not to say anything is set in stone.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2018, 07:02:07 pm »
no way. Chorae do not destroy a soul and remove it from the game. If they did that would undermine the main metaphysical tension that drives all the factions in the story to go to war over damnation.

We have two inchoroi left, both mages through grafting. The entire purpose of the inchoroi's millennia long campaign through space was to avoid hell.

If they could pick up a chorae and have it incinerate their soul and send them to oblivion instead of hell they would have done it on the spot. They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god and just disappeared. No eternity in hell so all good. Maybe they slightly prefer the idea of killing the gods and living forever on Earwa as immortal bio freaks, but that's just a preference. Their guiding purpose is avoiding hell and they'd be happy to die on the spot if it meant avoiding damnation. Or similarly, think of all the failed attempts the nonmen investigated to find oblivion over hell.

I feel like it's the opposite. There's no way Kellhus found the rare treasure of oblivion.


-Either he's full on dead and he's in hell in the outside being munched on by demons.
-Or he's full on dead and he's in the outside munching on demons.
-Or he's not really dead, and he pulled some Daimos bullshit to keep himself on the inside. Maybe in the decapitant like people are saying.

But I always thought the idea that Kellhus cheated and is still in the inside in the decapitant or whatever was super crazy. I definitely thought he was done, at least story wise. He's dead and he's not going to be a driving factor anymore. But that requires him going to hell.

So if Bakker says he's not in the outside, that seems like a big reveal to me. That seems to strongly indicate that it's daimos trickery of some kind.

Agreed on all of this. I had pondered the Chorae possibility before -- wherein, perhaps, no one knew the annihilating effects of chorae -- but it simply lowers the stakes far, far too dramatically.

My thoughts are also identical regarding Kellhus. If he's not in the Outside, he's either in Oblivion or, somehow, still within the World. But having thought on it (since learning he wasn't in the Outside) I don't buy for one second that Kellhus got into Oblivion. Far too easy of a fate for him.

I actually have thread on this exact topic I'm working on but still haven't finished (it's gargantuan), but one of the things I've considered for quite a while is that when Kellhus went into the Outside and "seized the head on the pole", he indadvertantly fucked up something about the causality of his soul, in such in a manner that he is now forever doomed to live in the World (as some kind of disembodied spirit or something, a wight maybe, or a perhaps a "spirit" akin to Shauriatas).

I've also considered that, since the head on a pole seems to at least have connotations of a "sentience" which resides "behind the head", particularly considering RSB's Blind Brain Theory and his twisted version of "It thinks, therefore I am."

Who/what that "sentient head on the pole" might be I am not sure -- the God of Gods, perhaps -- or maybe Seswatha?

I find the latter is especially interesting given that text actually uses the term "Seswatha Homunculus"...

From wiki:
Quote
The assumption here is that there is a "little man" or "homunculus" inside the brain "looking at" the movie.The reason why this is a fallacy may be understood by asking how the homunculus "sees" the internal movie. The obvious answer is that there is another homunculus inside the first homunculus's "head" or "brain" looking at this "movie". But that raises the question of how this homunculus sees the "outside world". To answer that seems to require positing another homunculus inside this second homunculus's head, and so forth. In other words, a situation of infinite regress is created. The problem with the homunculus argument is that it tries to account for a phenomenon in terms of the very phenomenon that it is supposed to explain.

Could Kellhus, perhaps in a mistaken attempt to "come before his soul", have actually created a scenario in which he is now the homunculus?

It would be a fitting fate for the character, trapped in the World forever (and also invoking Luciferian or Satanic myth wherein Lucifer is cast down to the earth for all time, since he covets dominion over the material world). Just think of the Mandate catechism:

"Though you forfeit your soul, you gain the World."


« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 07:04:06 pm by Francis Buck »

Francis Buck

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« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2018, 07:08:33 pm »
no way. Chorae do not destroy a soul and remove it from the game. If they did that would undermine the main metaphysical tension that drives all the factions in the story to go to war over damnation.

We have two inchoroi left, both mages through grafting. The entire purpose of the inchoroi's millennia long campaign through space was to avoid hell.

If they could pick up a chorae and have it incinerate their soul and send them to oblivion instead of hell they would have done it on the spot. They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god and just disappeared. No eternity in hell so all good. Maybe they slightly prefer the idea of killing the gods and living forever on Earwa as immortal bio freaks, but that's just a preference. Their guiding purpose is avoiding hell and they'd be happy to die on the spot if it meant avoiding damnation. Or similarly, think of all the failed attempts the nonmen investigated to find oblivion over hell.

I feel like it's the opposite. There's no way Kellhus found the rare treasure of oblivion.


-Either he's full on dead and he's in hell in the outside being munched on by demons.
-Or he's full on dead and he's in the outside munching on demons.
-Or he's not really dead, and he pulled some Daimos bullshit to keep himself on the inside. Maybe in the decapitant like people are saying.

But I always thought the idea that Kellhus cheated and is still in the inside in the decapitant or whatever was super crazy. I definitely thought he was done, at least story wise. He's dead and he's not going to be a driving factor anymore. But that requires him going to hell.

So if Bakker says he's not in the outside, that seems like a big reveal to me. That seems to strongly indicate that it's daimos trickery of some kind.

Agreed on all of this. I had pondered the Chorae possibility before -- wherein, perhaps, no one knew the annihilating effects of chorae -- but it simply lowers the stakes far, far too dramatically.

My thoughts are also identical regarding Kellhus. If he's not in the Outside, he's either in Oblivion or, somehow, still within the World. But having thought on it (since learning he wasn't in the Outside) I don't buy for one second that Kellhus got into Oblivion. Far too easy of a fate for him.

I actually have a thread on this exact topic I'm working on but still haven't finished (it's gargantuan), but one of the things I've considered for quite a while is that when Kellhus went into the Outside and "seized the head on the pole", he indadvertantly fucked up something about the causality of his soul, in such in a manner that he is now forever doomed to live in the World (as some kind of disembodied spirit or something, a wight maybe, or a perhaps a "spirit" akin to Shauriatas).

I've also pondered about how the head on a pole seems to at least have connotations of a "sentience" which resides "behind the head", particularly considering RSB's Blind Brain Theory, invoking his twisted version of "It thinks, therefore I am."

Who/what that "sentient head on the pole" might be I am not sure -- the God of Gods, perhaps...or maybe Seswatha?

I find the latter an especially interesting candidate given that the text actually uses the term "Seswatha Homunculus"...

From wiki:
Quote
The assumption here is that there is a "little man" or "homunculus" inside the brain "looking at" the movie. The reason why this is a fallacy may be understood by asking how the homunculus "sees" the internal movie. The obvious answer is that there is another homunculus inside the first homunculus's "head" or "brain" looking at this "movie". But that raises the question of how this homunculus sees the "outside world". To answer that seems to require positing another homunculus inside this second homunculus's head, and so forth. In other words, a situation of infinite regress is created. The problem with the homunculus argument is that it tries to account for a phenomenon in terms of the very phenomenon that it is supposed to explain.

Could Kellhus, perhaps in a mistaken attempt to "come before his soul", have actually created a scenario in which he is now the homunculus (which so far as we know is in fact trapped in the World)?

It would be a fitting fate for the character, trapped in the World forever (and could be compared to certain Luciferian myth, wherein Lucifer is cast down to the earth for all time, since he covets dominion over the material world). Just think of the Mandate catechism:

"Though you forfeit your soul, you gain the World."

I'm actually more drawn to the idea that Kellhus, rather than find some rest or even damnation in the Outside, instead actually acquires a perverse semblance of immortality, and even becoming the "prime mover of souls", but in turn also succumbs to a fate potentially worse than death from which he has no hope of escape.

"The Logos is without beginning or end."
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 07:17:07 pm by Francis Buck »

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2018, 03:15:11 am »
I actually have a thread on this exact topic I'm working on but still haven't finished (it's gargantuan), but one of the things I've considered.....
That, sir, is what's known in the broadcasting biz as a "deep tease"! Can't wait!!
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

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dragharrow

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« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2018, 11:27:49 am »
It's a strange thing. Yes, the No-God does something with birth, though we don't know what. But just by being there it doesn't close the world.

Wait I think we do know and I think it does close the world. My assumption was that Mimara's child was the last that will be born until the No God dies (it just slipped through before the No God started). Or much more unlikely, that Mimara's child is a strange exception, and it passed through the gates based on some metaphysical power we are yet to understand.

We do know what the No God does to birth. While it exists it blocks any soul from coming into the world. It is said many times that during the last rise of the No God, every single baby was born stillborn. The "meat" still worked so the baby's body grew in the womb and the mother went into labor. But with the No God active, no new souls could enter the world. So every single baby was born without a soul, therefore, they were stillborn. 

This is talked about a lot. That every baby for... I forget but I think like 8 years... is born stillborn, explicitly because of the No God being active. And there's lots of talk of the No God shutting the gates between the inside and the outside. Cleary for the input the effect is no new babies - what it means for the output is still unclear. When the No God is up I don't know what happens to people who die. Hopefully oblivion I suppose. But since the Inchoroi don't immediately kill themselves when they get the No God going, I think we can safely assume that it isn't oblivion waiting for those who die under its reign.

Sorcery is contingent on the Outside and still works

I don't know that sorcery is contingent on the outside the way souls being born or leaving is. I think sorcerers convince "the ground", not the
gods. Not exactly what the difference is but they aren't identical.

the Gods are able to act and were able in the First Apocalypse, I'm pretty sure Ciphrang can still be summoned

Can they? They are briefly perceived I think but I seem to remember a lot of talk of the Gods being abnormally distant, almost unreachable. And I don't think we have any references to Ciphrang in the first apocalypse

Considering all of this, I don't think it is correct to say that the world is closed in any way.

What about all the references to the No God blocking out the gods. Or being the "bone to choke them". I think he closes the basic soul i/o gate. But to fully close them off forever they need the 144k thing.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 11:30:12 am by dragharrow »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2018, 01:55:49 pm »
Wait I think we do know and I think it does close the world.
It starts that process, yes. It doesn't complete it instantly. Just like you said, the Inchoroi didn't immediately kill themselves the moment the No-God was operational.

We do know what the No God does to birth.
I believe you misunderstood my point. We know the evident effect of the No-God on birth, that was never in question. We don't know how that effect is achieved. Is it purely a Tekne thing? Is it a metaphysical thing? TUC makes a strong case of it being a disruption of the Great Cycle of Souls (whatever that is), but what kind of disruption? Achieved by what means?

This is what I meant by saying we don't know what the No-God does to birth. The point is, we don't know the metaphysical significance of the No-God and its effect, we merely assume the significance exists. The Consult thinks the No-God will help them achieve their goals, but we have no idea how, from their perspective, it's going to do that, not to mention whether they are right to believe so (though so far they seem to be the best at predicting the No-God and its actions).

I don't know that sorcery is contingent on the outside the way souls being born or leaving is. I think sorcerers convince "the ground", not the gods. Not exactly what the difference is but they aren't identical.
I believe sorcery is absolutely contingent on the Outside, because its timeless nature allows what comes after determine what comes before. This ties into the Survivor's revelations. Also, just to be clear, the Gods and the Outside are in no way synonymous. Sorcery has nothing to do with the Gods (unlike Psatma and the White-Luck Warrior's abilities).

And yes, so far the Outside seems to be more than sorcery and the Great Cycle of Souls.

Can they? They are briefly perceived I think but I seem to remember a lot of talk of the Gods being abnormally distant, almost unreachable. And I don't think we have any references to Ciphrang in the first apocalypse

Concerning Ciphrang, I was speculating. But the way I understand things, nothing should prevent them from being summoned.

Concerning the Gods, I can offer, for example, this quote of Bakker's as evidence:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg36488#msg36488

In essence, the Gods are impaired by their blindness, but they are not immediately rendered powerless by the Resumption. For that, the System must run its course completely, it appears.

I think there was something in the series itself about the Gods hearing their followers fine during the First Apocalypse, but not being able to understand what's happening due to being blind to the No-God (important, specifically the No-God, not the world around it, even when the System is active). Alas, I'm going to be hard-pressed to find it at the moment.

What about all the references to the No God blocking out the gods. Or being the "bone to choke them". I think he closes the basic soul i/o gate. But to fully close them off forever they need the 144k thing.
It's exactly what I meant, the process is started, but not (yet) completed.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 02:21:21 pm by SmilerLoki »

dragharrow

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« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2018, 08:24:02 am »
Wait I think we do know and I think it does close the world.
It starts that process, yes. It doesn't complete it instantly. Just like you said, the Inchoroi didn't immediately kill themselves the moment the No-God was operational.
We do know what the No God does to birth.
I believe you misunderstood my point. We know the evident effect of the No-God on birth, that was never in question. We don't know how that effect is achieved. Is it purely a Tekne thing? Is it a metaphysical thing? TUC makes a strong case of it being a disruption of the Great Cycle of Souls (whatever that is), but what kind of disruption? Achieved by what means?

You're right, I did misunderstand your point. That is all very fair.

This is what I meant by saying we don't know what the No-God does to birth. The point is, we don't know the metaphysical significance of the No-God and its effect, we merely assume the significance exists. The Consult thinks the No-God will help them achieve their goals, but we have no idea how, from their perspective, it's going to do that, not to mention whether they are right to believe so (though so far they seem to be the best at predicting the No-God and its actions)

I'm in total agreement. As far as I know we don't even have any information as to how the Inchoroi received the prophesies that they base all of this on. Their intergalactic quest that drove them to murder the inhabitants of all of these different planets must have been driven by a prophesy that claimed that doing so could close the cycle and save their souls - meaning they have to have received it long before they found Earwa. They must have gotten it out in the depths of unenchanted space. How, and in what way did that happen?

I wish we had learned more about the metaphysics of the Inverse Flame in the last book. It appears to be an object of the Tekne, one that predates the Inchoroi gaining access to sorcery, yet it interfaces with the outside and hell in some way. I'd love details on the metaphysics of a Tekne artifact that can do that.

I don't know that sorcery is contingent on the outside the way souls being born or leaving is. I think sorcerers convince "the ground", not the gods. Not exactly what the difference is but they aren't identical.
I believe sorcery is absolutely contingent on the Outside, because its timeless nature allows what comes after determine what comes before. This ties into the Survivor's revelations. Also, just to be clear, the Gods and the Outside are in no way synonymous. Sorcery has nothing to do with the Gods (unlike Psatma and the White-Luck Warrior's abilities).

Fair enough, well said.

This is a little off topic but relevant. Do you think that the "specialness" of Earwa predates the not-special rest of the universe? Or is Earwa's strange metaphysical nature secondary? Something strange that happened to a part of an already existing normal planet in a normal universe?

I always kind of assumed that Earwa was the "center" and probably the beginning of this world. And that that's why it's special. It's unique metaphysics a product of it's special role in the universe. Maybe I've failed to really considered the possibility that the metaphysics of Earwa are something created. A change to the status quo.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 08:26:55 am by dragharrow »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2018, 09:57:39 am »
I wish we had learned more about the metaphysics of the Inverse Flame in the last book. It appears to be an object of the Tekne, one that predates the Inchoroi gaining access to sorcery, yet it interfaces with the outside and hell in some way. I'd love details on the metaphysics of a Tekne artifact that can do that.
It's precisely because such a Tekne artifact exists that I think the Progenitors had a theoretical understanding of damnation and the Outside from the Tekne point of view. I don't think it's prophesy, I think it's a scientific theoretical framework supported be experimental work. Since they were able to create the Inverse Fire, which does interface with the Outside, that framework appears to be workable at least to an extent.

This could be completely wrong, though. It's only my understanding up to this point.

This is a little off topic but relevant. Do you think that the "specialness" of Earwa predates the not-special rest of the universe? Or is Earwa's strange metaphysical nature secondary? Something strange that happened to a part of an already existing normal planet in a normal universe?
The way I think about it is centered around the timeless nature of the Outside phenomena. Let's consider the Judging Eye, for example. Mimara has it because at some point she is going to have a stillborn child. It doesn't matter when, be it in the past, present, or future, the result, the Eye, is there for all of her life as far as we know. It's the same with Earwa as a whole: whatever makes it special created a timeless phenomena. Whenever that happened (in the past, present, or future), the result is there always. I also feel Kellhus's "the Inchoroi must win" sentiment is closely related to this line of thinking.

This is also why I think that the fall of the No-God in the First Apocalypse might be closely related to the events of the Second Apocalypse, being also of timeless nature. This is, of course, pure speculation.

MSJ

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« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2018, 06:31:23 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
It's precisely because such a Tekne artifact exists that I think the Progenitors had a theoretical understanding of damnation and the Outside from the Tekne point of view. I don't think it's prophesy, I think it's a scientific theoretical framework supported be experimental work. Since they were able to create the Inverse Fire, which does interface with the Outside, that framework appears to be workable at least to an extent.

There was always the line of thinking that it was just a goad. But, I think Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger, puts that theory to rest.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2018, 06:56:45 pm »
There was always the line of thinking that it was just a goad. But, I think Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger, puts that theory to rest.

That fact that what it shows you is true doesn't mean it isn't a goad though.  It being The Goad only speaks to the likely fact that while it shows you a truth, that doesn't have to be The Truth.  In other words, it will show almost everyone as Damned, but that doesn't mean no one could be saved.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2018, 07:00:18 pm »
There was always the line of thinking that it was just a goad. But, I think Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger, puts that theory to rest.
That's why I'm not sure about the aforementioned framework being completely workable. It might be incomplete, with the Inchoroi being just one more experiment. Then the Inverse Fire cannot be seen as conclusive proof of anything.

But I doubt it's going to be relevant.

H

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« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2018, 08:07:59 pm »
That's why I'm not sure about the aforementioned framework being completely workable. It might be incomplete, with the Inchoroi being just one more experiment. Then the Inverse Fire cannot be seen as conclusive proof of anything.

But I doubt it's going to be relevant.

It's proof that Damnation is real.  It just doesn't mean that Damnation is certain.  But with the propensity for souled things to want to maintain Identity, it is the Goad, because the only way out of the whole trap is the give up/in.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2018, 08:48:52 pm »
Quote from:  H
That fact that what it shows you is true doesn't mean it isn't a goad though.  It being The Goad only speaks to the likely fact that while it shows you a truth, that doesn't have to be The Truth.  In other words, it will show almost everyone as Damned, but that doesn't mean no one could be saved.

Right, exactly what we learn through Koringhus. What I was actually meaning, was I never expected for anyone to actually see themselves in the IF.

I thought it purely a goad. A Tekne invention that showed what hell might be like. I was very surprised when Kellhus seen himself. So, I imagine "some" link to the Outside does exist.

Maybe not? Maybe Kellhus seen what he wanted to see. Who knows? His is the only experience we actually get any description of basically. Maybe you see what you want. I do understand your explanation, though.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,