"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2018, 09:29:38 pm »
It's proof that Damnation is real.  It just doesn't mean that Damnation is certain.  But with the propensity for souled things to want to maintain Identity, it is the Goad, because the only way out of the whole trap is the give up/in.
If we consider the Inchoroi themselves an experiment, nothing the Inverse Fire shows is proof of anything, since in that framework it would be designed specifically to show the Inchoroi only what they need to see for the experiment to run its course. Then Kellhus's statement might be seen as confirming this exact point of view since he, not being part of the experiment, saw something different. The others, whose experiences correlated with the Inchoroi's, might fall into the framework of the experiment for a variety of reasons (for example, because of their prolonged interaction with the Inchoroi or being hand-picked by them).

This is why i think it might not be relevant. It's too specific, even convoluted.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #91 on: November 14, 2018, 01:12:46 am »
Of course it's a goad! Because it shows you what the Gods have in store for you in the wonderful afterlife.

dragharrow

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« Reply #92 on: November 14, 2018, 01:37:56 am »
It's precisely because such a Tekne artifact exists that I think the Progenitors had a theoretical understanding of damnation and the Outside from the Tekne point of view. I don't think it's prophesy, I think it's a scientific theoretical framework supported be experimental work. Since they were able to create the Inverse Fire, which does interface with the Outside, that framework appears to be workable at least to an extent.

This could be completely wrong, though. It's only my understanding up to this point.

Yeah, I agree that the progenitors of the Inchoroi had to have some knowledge of the existence of damnation and the outside from their Tekne. Otherwise the Inchoroi would not know about it and there would be no reason for their quest.

I still kind of like the idea I tried to sell for how the Inverse Fire worked (before we had seen it) that the Inchoroi were developing some kind of deep freeze suspended animation technology in order to put people under for lengthy space trips. But when frozen the subject was essentially dead, went to hell, and then when they were reconstituted and woke up they got yanked out of hell and back into the inside. I like the idea of a bunch of Inchoroi test subjects waking up screaming about how they just spent eternity in the pit of fire.

I don't think it's prophesy,

The Inchoroi do refer to it as prophesy. The bird synthese says something like: we must observe all the prophesies, even the false ones. I get that that isn't conclusive. Their knowledge could originate from pure science and have become prophesy in its transmission. I'm trying to imagine what that science would have looked like.

The way I think about it is centered around the timeless nature of the Outside phenomena. Let's consider the Judging Eye, for example. Mimara has it because at some point she is going to have a stillborn child. It doesn't matter when, be it in the past, present, or future, the result, the Eye, is there for all of her life as far as we know. It's the same with Earwa as a whole: whatever makes it special created a timeless phenomena. Whenever that happened (in the past, present, or future), the result is there always. I also feel Kellhus's "the Inchoroi must win" sentiment is closely related to this line of thinking.

This is also why I think that the fall of the No-God in the First Apocalypse might be closely related to the events of the Second Apocalypse, being also of timeless nature. This is, of course, pure speculation.

I basically buy all of that in terms of the time element, but I think my question is still something different. I've always assumed that the whole universe hangs on Earwa. Even if it's true that there's some kind of weird time thing going on where - A therefore B, B therefore C, C therefore A - I still think that the genesis and primacy of Earwa is relevant.

It's a little hard to talk about because of the time thing but I guess I've always assumed that the Outside proceeds the Inside. In all senses.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #93 on: November 14, 2018, 05:30:07 am »
The Inchoroi do refer to it as prophesy. The bird synthese says something like: we must observe all the prophesies, even the false ones. I get that that isn't conclusive. Their knowledge could originate from pure science and have become prophesy in its transmission. I'm trying to imagine what that science would have looked like.
I always took it as them encountering prophesy specifically in Earwa, because it's possible there, since the connection to the Outside is stronger. Once encountered, though, the Inchoroi incorporated prophesy into their designs.

It's a little hard to talk about because of the time thing but I guess I've always assumed that the Outside proceeds the Inside. In all senses.
The time element is crucial, because it rejects the notion of primacy altogether. It doesn't exist from the timeless perspective.

I also think there is no precedence of the Outside over the Inside or vice versa, they are part of the same construct and intrinsically reliant on one another. As in there is no one without the other.

dragharrow

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« Reply #94 on: November 14, 2018, 08:10:12 am »
The Inchoroi do refer to it as prophesy. The bird synthese says something like: we must observe all the prophesies, even the false ones. I get that that isn't conclusive. Their knowledge could originate from pure science and have become prophesy in its transmission. I'm trying to imagine what that science would have looked like.

I always took it as them encountering prophesy specifically in Earwa, because it's possible there, since the connection to the Outside is stronger. Once encountered, though, the Inchoroi incorporated prophesy into their designs.

Possibly. I'm not sure I buy it. That line seems to reference the existence of at least one prophesy that the Inchoroi care about that we have not even heard of. I kind of think it suggests the existence of numerous prophesy's that the Inchoroi follow and we have never heard of.

It's a little hard to talk about because of the time thing but I guess I've always assumed that the Outside proceeds the Inside. In all senses.
The time element is crucial, because it rejects the notion of primacy altogether. It doesn't exist from the timeless perspective.

No come on, that's not true. I get what you are saying, from an ultimate position, looking on the time stream from a "sideways" position, then yes, it is timeless and primacy doesn't exist.

But there are plenty of things in the second trilogy where we can say more about the time elements than just: well this happened because this, etc. There are areas where you can make comments about the way time has become tangled up. You could draw a time weirdness map of the books and it would not be identical to a standard map of the events depicted. The additional information that would appear in the time weirdness map makes questions like primacy relevant.

I also think there is no precedence of the Outside over the Inside or vice versa, they are part of the same construct and intrinsically reliant on one another. As in there is no one without the other.

So there can't be more than one inside then? I don't think there is but I think there easily could be. I think that's the best way of describing my understanding of the outside being prime. I've always thought of the inside as a just a bubble created by the gods in the outside. A place with rules that allow for a greater "clarity of souls". Created that they might eat our smoke.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 08:28:45 am by dragharrow »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #95 on: November 14, 2018, 03:42:30 pm »
Possibly. I'm not sure I buy it. That line seems to reference the existence of at least one prophesy that the Inchoroi care about that we have not even heard of. I kind of think it suggests the existence of numerous prophesy's that the Inchoroi follow and we have never heard of.
Also a possibility. My understanding is in no way confirmed.

There are areas where you can make comments about the way time has become tangled up. You could draw a time weirdness map of the books and it would not be identical to a standard map of the events depicted. The additional information that would appear in the time weirdness map makes questions like primacy relevant.
Not from the metaphysical perspective, no. Since in Earwa powerful agencies are active simultaneously all throughout time, its non-linearity from the point of view of mortals is a given. I believe you refer, at least in part, to the events beyond the scope of the Gods' vision. Like the failure of the first White-Luck Warrior, which in retrospect created Sorweel before said failure. But the moment the change of the eternal transpired, Yatwer always knew her first vessel was going to fail, yet at the same time the vessel already existed, so it has always existed and been part of Yatwer's plan. Nonetheless, since it wasn't sufficient to deal with Kellhus, her plan now included a second vessel. Of course, for her it was always so.

So there can't be more than one inside then?
That depends. Since the context of the Outside is intrinsically connected to the context of the Inside, and the absence of time is the absence of space the way we understand it (speed of traveling is a function of time, so without time there is merely untraversable distance/difference between concepts, if you will), I'm inclined to consider the Outside uniform throughout the universe and the same as it is in Earwa. If there were other Gods, or if the Gods were different for other races, Men would encounter it in their interaction with them, because the Gods are unchanging, eternal. Since we know the Gods only as human Gods (for example, they don't seem to have that high of an opinion about Nonmen), I believe this is their only nature. In essence, that's what makes Earwa special: it shapes the Outside and is in turn shaped by the Outside, thus creating a feedback loop that imposes Earwan rules on the universe.

So, could there be, for example, other dimensions? Sure, but that wouldn't be very relevant for the rules of the story, just like other planets weren't relevant. Earwa is where the shaping happens. That's why the No-God must rise there, among other things.

I've always thought of the inside as a just a bubble created by the gods in the outside.
Now this is a strange notion. The Gods didn't create anything, the God of Gods did, which is a separate entity that we know almost nothing about.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 03:48:34 pm by SmilerLoki »

themerchant

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« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2018, 07:37:13 pm »
I've always thought that the outside was another dimension that we physically can't turn and walk into. That's why Bakker uses Orthogonal, the outside is everywhere length breadth height and time are like a 5th dimension. The Ciphrang godling in the arc just had the ability to move in that direction and go back to the outside. Also since it's at Orthogonal to time as well that means can see all time as well. If you imagine a 2D creature or an ant on a huge mobius loop, walking for ever. It would look to the ant it was walking in a straight line. but to someone able to perceive 3 dimensions it would actually be walking in a figure of 8 as we could see the whole.


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« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2018, 07:52:41 pm »
I've always thought that the outside was another dimension that we physically can't turn and walk into. That's why Bakker uses Orthogonal, the outside is everywhere length breadth height and time are like a 5th dimension. The Ciphrang godling in the arc just had the ability to move in that direction and go back to the outside. Also since it's at Orthogonal to time as well that means can see all time as well. If you imagine a 2D creature or an ant on a huge mobius loop, walking for ever. It would look to the ant it was walking in a straight line. but to someone able to perceive 3 dimensions it would actually be walking in a figure of 8 as we could see the whole.

I don't think they have to be mutually elusive though.  As in, the Outside can be both an inter-subjective sapce and also "Orthogonal" to physical space.  It doesn't really square up for the Outside to be akin to a physical space to me, but it also shares a number of characteristics similar to a physical space.  I think that kind of paradoxical nature is exactly what Bakker was aiming at.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2018, 08:11:50 pm »
I've always thought that the outside was another dimension that we physically can't turn and walk into. That's why Bakker uses Orthogonal, the outside is everywhere length breadth height and time are like a 5th dimension. The Ciphrang godling in the arc just had the ability to move in that direction and go back to the outside. Also since it's at Orthogonal to time as well that means can see all time as well. If you imagine a 2D creature or an ant on a huge mobius loop, walking for ever. It would look to the ant it was walking in a straight line. but to someone able to perceive 3 dimensions it would actually be walking in a figure of 8 as we could see the whole.
I feel such a representation fails to capture other properties of time, like, for example, ability to change spatial position, since from our perspective propagation of events is possible (because time exists). Now, let's say it doesn't. From that point of view everything is eternally the same, every action happens simultaneously, every change is already seen as done. It's not even that everything happens concurrently, to be precise, it's like the existence is static, already including everything it can include. The notions of past, present, and future are only relevant when human perspective encounters actions of such timeless agencies. They, on the other hands, see humans differently, as a sum of everything they are, were, will be and do, have done, will do.

In essence, the difference is not in dimensions, it's in frame of reference.

At least this is my current line of thinking.

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« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2018, 08:43:25 pm »
Well, I think a major portion of why the Outside can't just be "another dimension" is that, if it were, it makes very little sense that it could be "closed off."  I mean, it could be, but I think the whole aim of the 144k, the No-God and the Consult/Progenitor plan is that the "reality" of the Outside can be rewritten, in the right circumstances, when only the proscribed number of survivors are present and in a place where "meaning" is malleable.

I guess we could recapitulate the famous question as: if every Souled thing was dead, is there an Outside?  I think, confusingly enough, the answer is both yes and no.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2018, 09:02:31 pm »
Well, I think a major portion of why the Outside can't just be "another dimension" is that, if it were, it makes very little sense that it could be "closed off."  I mean, it could be, but I think the whole aim of the 144k, the No-God and the Consult/Progenitor plan is that the "reality" of the Outside can be rewritten, in the right circumstances, when only the proscribed number of survivors are present and in a place where "meaning" is malleable.
That's my take on it as well.

themerchant

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« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2018, 05:49:16 am »
When Saubon dies he falls and stops and hell rises up to meet him all indicating to me a direction and movement in that direction. Same with how hell is described within the arc how there is torsion which again implies direction and twisting in some dimension.

This is a good example of what i was trying to say with dimensions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM


SmilerLoki

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« Reply #102 on: November 15, 2018, 12:36:50 pm »
When Saubon dies he falls and stops and hell rises up to meet him all indicating to me a direction and movement in that direction. Same with how hell is described within the arc how there is torsion which again implies direction and twisting in some dimension.

This is a good example of what i was trying to say with dimensions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM
I understand what you mean, but our minds would see dimensions even if there is none (even in reality), since they are wired that way, or, more specifically, since this framework of understanding is taught in school, which is why it's useful for explaining concepts to readers. But it's not the only way, and a limited one at that. The Outside is a place of souls, which aren't a physical concept. It's more to do with philosophy and the notion of thought than with the concept of physical space.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 12:39:01 pm by SmilerLoki »

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« Reply #103 on: November 15, 2018, 02:28:47 pm »
I understand what you mean, but our minds would see dimensions even if there is none (even in reality), since they are wired that way, or, more specifically, since this framework of understanding is taught in school, which is why it's useful for explaining concepts to readers. But it's not the only way, and a limited one at that. The Outside is a place of souls, which aren't a physical concept. It's more to do with philosophy and the notion of thought than with the concept of physical space.

Well, one issue of trying to conceptualize the Outside as a "dimension" is that it does not map to physical dimensions in any 1:1 way.  In fact, it specifically does not map onto the axis of time or space, because it, at best, would be mapped below these things.  That is to say, it is not a "higher order" but a "lower" one, where time and space are not distinct.  Of course, the paradox seeps in here, where there are analogies of time and space within the Outside, but again, those don't match the same things on the Inside.

Basically, along the lines of the Koringhus Revelations, the Outside is more akin to a singularity than it is to a 4th (or Nth) dimension.  Being a singularity though, of course, paradoxes not only abound, they are part and parcel of it's structure and nature.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #104 on: November 15, 2018, 02:39:47 pm »
Well, one issue of trying to conceptualize the Outside as a "dimension" is that it does not map to physical dimensions in any 1:1 way.  In fact, it specifically does not map onto the axis of time or space, because it, at best, would be mapped below these things.  That is to say, it is not a "higher order" but a "lower" one, where time and space are not distinct.  Of course, the paradox seeps in here, where there are analogies of time and space within the Outside, but again, those don't match the same things on the Inside.

Basically, along the lines of the Koringhus Revelations, the Outside is more akin to a singularity than it is to a 4th (or Nth) dimension.  Being a singularity though, of course, paradoxes not only abound, they are part and parcel of it's structure and nature.
We're on the same page about it, then! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who sees it this way.