eSports vs Sports

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MSJ

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« on: February 20, 2018, 04:49:42 pm »
This convo started in the Olympics thread and Wilshire suggested we should probably make a thread of its own, as to not make Dora Vee change into a Ciphrang and shut down the forum. (Kidding, I feel you ire Dora Vee)

Wilshire and I had some convo about this, along with Tleilaxu, and if anyone would like to jump in and offer thoughts, please do.

From the Oxford dictionary: An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.

That's what I think excludes eSports, from being a real sport. Sure we can attach sport onto the end of anything for commercial reasons. That's the reason its being done in video games, to attract more people. But, for all the skill (mental, hand-eye coordination), you are missing the physical exertion which makes a sport, a sport. Trust me, I know it takes plenty of skill. I played Madden from the time it came out til about the 2005 version, and I was very, very good. I have nephews that would beat me today with their eyes closed. So, I'm not questioning that one bit.

I also linked a story from ESPN where a Curling athlete from Russia tested positive for PED's. I did this because Wilshire used Curling as a comparable sport to eSports. I don't believe there have been any PED controversies in any eSports competitions.

So, just a place to nicely discuss what constitutes a sport and what does not.

Oh, one last thought. I do see a future where kids have whole rooms that act as a virtual world, and that is how you play the game. Actually running, ducking, jumping and so forth. I've always thought ill see it before I die. If it does come to that, then I would consider that a sport. There would be tons of physical exertion in such a thing. Alas, we are not there yet, but probably very close.
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Redeagl

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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2018, 06:05:39 am »
To be honest MSJ, I think you should try playing an esport yourself before judging, or at least reading about it or watching it. It's faaar from "shooting nazis and zombies while eating Doritos " like you said in the last thread, and is more mentally challenging than most physical sports ( SC2 at least is, since it's not a team game)  .
ETA: Oh and Madden is not really an esport. I think you took the word "esport" a bit too literal there. I suggest trying Starcraft 2 , it's free and only needs a PC that is younger than 10 years old.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 06:09:15 am by Redeagl »
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MSJ

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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2018, 12:40:58 pm »
Quote from:  Reseal
To be honest MSJ, I think you should try playing an esport yourself before judging, or at least reading about it or watching it. It's faaar from "shooting nazis and zombies while eating Doritos " like you said in the last thread, and is more mentally challenging than most physical sports ( SC2 at least is, since it's not a team game)  .
ETA: Oh and Madden is not really an esport. I think you took the word "esport" a bit too literal there. I suggest trying Starcraft 2 , it's free and only needs a PC that is younger than 10 years old.

I really have zero interests, nor time for video games. Well, I guess I could, but I'd rather be more productive and spend time with my kids.

I apologized in the Olympics thread. I do not think it's a sport, I do agree that it takes tons of mental skill and hand eye coordination. Its just missing the physical exertion. I explained this in my opening post also.

Look, I have an 8, 6 and 2 year old children, it won't be long and I will pony up for a gaming system. As long as it does not effect their health, social skills and school, I will have no problem with it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2018, 02:57:59 pm »
Look, I have an 8, 6 and 2 year old children, it won't be long and I will pony up for a gaming system. As long as it does not effect their health, social skills and school, I will have no problem with it.

Don't do it man, its downhill once you give in...
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2018, 04:56:03 pm »
If I had kids I'd be proud if they became good at SC2 or counter strike. Probably the most quintessential e-sports right there.

themerchant

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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2018, 05:16:42 pm »
This is one of the oldest debates on another forum i frequent, 15 years and counting. The battle lines have moved barely an inch in the last 15 years and the eternal war continues apace to this day. Having managed to get myself out of that debate i'm going to stay out of this one. I will read it though as perhaps a new point will appear that will help solve the result on the other board :D

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2018, 05:26:32 pm »
Anything that doesn't involve a object to be thrown, a team, a way to score points, and physical activity isn't a sport.

So esports aren't sports.
Neither is any board game (like chess, go, etc.).
Exercising isn't a sport: running, cycling, swimming. Its exercise.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 05:49:30 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2018, 09:58:07 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
]Exercising isn't a sport: running, cycling, swimming. Its exercise.

Excercising isn't a sport, agreed. I don't agree on the others. They have systems for scoring and are individual and team sports. Physical exertion is not in question on any of them.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2018, 11:27:59 pm »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
If I had kids I'd be proud if they became good at SC2 or counter strike. Probably the most quintessential e-sports right there.

Sir, you're missing my point entirely. If one of my kids was able to compete in the eSports championship, I would be proud also. As long as it doesn't effect other area's of his/her life negatively.

Maybe I worded my original post on this subject very poorly, my bad. I have nothing against gamers. Just besides the few who take it seriously, most don't.  And, its just a way to be lazy and burn time. When they could be making themselves better people in a number of different ways, excluding sports. I will agree the players I've seen in those type of tournaments are not obese, and I think most probably have a higher than average IQ. But, they are anomalies, not the norm.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2018, 11:57:29 pm »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
If I had kids I'd be proud if they became good at SC2 or counter strike. Probably the most quintessential e-sports right there.

Sir, you're missing my point entirely. If one of my kids was able to compete in the eSports championship, I would be proud also. As long as it doesn't effect other area's of his/her life negatively.

Maybe I worded my original post on this subject very poorly, my bad. I have nothing against gamers. Just besides the few who take it seriously, most don't.  And, its just a way to be lazy and burn time. When they could be making themselves better people in a number of different ways, excluding sports. I will agree the players I've seen in those type of tournaments are not obese, and I think most probably have a higher than average IQ. But, they are anomalies, not the norm.
Did you just say gaming is a way to be lazy to burn time and that most gamers are obese and have a low IQ?

MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2018, 12:49:19 am »
Man, I thought I just addressed my not well thought out post in the post you just quoted.....

I've been looking at IQ and gamers and just the little bit I've read, there seems to be no correlation at all.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2018, 01:53:01 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
]Exercising isn't a sport: running, cycling, swimming. Its exercise.

Excercising isn't a sport, agreed. I don't agree on the others. They have systems for scoring and are individual and team sports. Physical exertion is not in question on any of them.

I don't agree, obviously. Nothing sporting about exercising. Same as an eSport.

Quote from:  TLEILAXU
If I had kids I'd be proud if they became good at SC2 or counter strike. Probably the most quintessential e-sports right there.

Sir, you're missing my point entirely. If one of my kids was able to compete in the eSports championship, I would be proud also. As long as it doesn't effect other area's of his/her life negatively.

Can be said for anything though. You seem to really want to make a blanket statement about video games (and I might actually agree). However, no one is saying video games are going to make you fit, and I thought we were talking about esports...

But exercise anorexia is a thing - several people in my family have it. A kind of body dismorphia where people don't eat enough and feel like they are fat so they exercise an extreme amount. Its sad, it ruins their bodies, and leads to lifelong problems which can lead to death. One might look at that and say exercising leads to body dismorphia - at least I never met a gamer who thought they were physically fit when they weren't.

Most everyone that I know who spends a lot of time exercising ... I don't like. They tend to be the worst kind of people who only do one thing - I call them gym rats. They can't do, or say, anything other than exercise and talk about sports.

I don't personally know anyone who has ruined their life playing video games. Even if you do, video games is a symptom, not a cause. Someone who is lazy, unmotivated, and has an addictive personality, will find ways to ruin their life - with or without video games. Conversely, its entirely possible to be both an avid video game player and perfectly healthy.

But, MSJ, you specifically seem to have difficulty wrapping your head around the idea that playing video games, and international esports competitors, are not the same thing. Maybe intellectually you do, but the discussions that keep arising speak to an underlying confusion that hasn't yet been rectified, and I fear there's nothing that can bridge the gap. Its like trying to describe "why not" to someone who thinks they can play in the NBA because they do pickup games on the weekends with their friends.

I suspect, MSJ, that you don't know what is normative for a typical 'video game player'. Again though, if we're talking about a typical video game player and not esports, we can talk about a typical "i go to the gym" person. I see more overweight, unathletic people at the gym than I do at the supermarket. Do I then conclude that working out, and being at the gym, makes people obese and dumb?

Tleilaxu, you clearly have an axe to grind. Please read more carefully before you make responses, it makes the conversations easier to have. So do multi-sentence posts.

ETA: Sorry MSJ, not trying to hound you. Doesn't seem like a lot of participation so I'm chiming in.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 02:29:38 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

themerchant

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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2018, 05:46:39 pm »
Most world class athletes (especially women) aren't "healthy". << just a random aside that popped into my heads for reasons i can longer remember.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2018, 06:33:22 pm »
Tleilaxu, you clearly have an axe to grind. Please read more carefully before you make responses, it makes the conversations easier to have. So do multi-sentence posts.

ETA: Sorry MSJ, not trying to hound you. Doesn't seem like a lot of participation so I'm chiming in.
Quote
And, its just a way to be lazy and burn time. When they could be making themselves better people in a number of different ways, excluding sports.
-> gaming is a way to be lazy and burn time as opposed to making yourself a better person.
Quote
I will agree the players I've seen in those type of tournaments are not obese, and I think most probably have a higher than average IQ. But, they are anomalies, not the norm.
If non-obese players with higher than average IQs are anomalies then the norm must be the opposite.
I don't have any axe to grind, I just found the post funny. If I were truly angry I wouldn't be able to hide it. Truth is I don't really care that much, but everytime MSJ says e-sports is not a sport I want to insist that it is.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2018, 11:33:14 pm »
Teenagers being "bums" is an age old problem/issue/complaint - seems once you're in a position to take care of your children, not relying on them to produce for the family, you risk them atrophying. There are letters/texts from the 18th and 19th centuries America of Senators and the like complaining their kids party all the time. I believe ( but cannot source it ) same from Romans and Greeks few thousand years ago.

I'm torn because my oldest son simply plays too much on his computer ( League of Legends, et al ), but I also have him quite active in Scouts and LaCrosse and he's developed the habit of doing his homework before doing anything else - so on the one hand, I don't want to be up his ass about his every spare minute, but on the other I wished he did SOMETHING other than computer shit with his spare time. I'm working on Friday nights being board game night, but it's not taking with him, he "puts up" with it. Tried movie night, which works some if popcorn is involved.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 11:34:55 pm by TaoHorror »
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