Timing the incident between Theliopa and Inrilatas?

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« on: February 25, 2018, 07:20:17 pm »
Not that I enjoy talking about the details of the most traumatic experience of my favourite character's life, but today I was editing Thelli's wiki page on a whim and kept wondering about this...

What do we know?
Well, when Thelli and Kelmomas have their conversation late in TGO (chapter 16), she says
Quote
"I’m surprised you remember."
meaning Kelmomas would have been very young when it went down (or it actually happened before he was born and he just remembers Inrilatas calling Thelli "Sranky"?).

But then we have this, from the same conversation:
Quote
"How many times?" he asked her.
A lethargic blink. "Until Father locked him up."
So it seems Kellhus had Inrilatas locked up for good as a direct result of Thelli's rape (or at least it was the last straw for him).

When was Inrilatas imprisoned, exactly?
In chapter 12 of TJE, Kelmomas thinks:
Quote
He never stopped raving, which was why he was always kept locked in his room. Kelmomas had not seen him for more than three years.
Therefore the Theliopa/Inrilatas incident had to have happened at least 3 years before the events of TAE (so, in or before 4129).
Kelmomas is 8 years old during TAE, so he would have been 5 at the most at that time...which makes Thelli's comment about him remembering seem somewhat strange. I mean, it doesn't seem implausible in the least that a half-Dûnyain child would remember something that happened when they were 5 or younger...

However, remember that Kelmomas' soul was conjoined to Samarmas' for quite a while during their early life. In chapter 5 of TJE, Kelmomas reflects on this:
Quote
Only in his third summer, when Hagitatas, with doddering yet implacable patience, made a litany of the difference between beast, man, and god, was Kelmomas able to overcome the tumult that was his brother.
So it is possible that Theliopa was referring to the rapes starting when Kelmomas was younger than 3 (and thus still one being with Samarmas and unable to remember anything that happened during that time) and Inrilatas' imprisonment actually coming later (as Kellhus finally decided that things couldn't go on any longer as they were). Which, to me, does seem to be somewhat more plausible than the previous possibility I pointed out.

It does make Thelli's backstory even more depressing, thinking she might have been raped for years with Kellhus knowing and not doing anything about it during most of that time... :(

Any comments/opinions on this?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2018, 03:16:59 pm »
It definitely seems like a Kellhus thing to do - letting the abuse continue and not doing anything about it until it became inconvenient for him. Maybe thinking that one or the other would break in a useful way, or kill the other and be done with it. Since neither happened, or since it was clear Theli could be useful and Inrilatas (btw Inri-latas ...  Inri Sejenus ...) would not grow out of his madness.

As Moenghus Jr. was a dog for the other siblings to sharpen their claws on, Theli was the sacrificial lamb for the alter of Inrilatas. He had such promise, and another strong son would have been very desierable. Alas, not to be.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 03:18:47 pm by Wilshire »
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SuJuroit

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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2018, 04:39:57 pm »
It definitely seems like a Kellhus thing to do - letting the abuse continue and not doing anything about it until it became inconvenient for him. Maybe thinking that one or the other would break in a useful way, or kill the other and be done with it. Since neither happened, or since it was clear Theli could be useful and Inrilatas (btw Inri-latas ...  Inri Sejenus ...) would not grow out of his madness.

As Moenghus Jr. was a dog for the other siblings to sharpen their claws on, Theli was the sacrificial lamb for the alter of Inrilatas. He had such promise, and another strong son would have been very desierable. Alas, not to be.

Yeah, that's brutal, but very much in character for Kellhus.  Theli was smart, but as a female and not one of the Few (plus with her... issues) she was of limited utility to him.  I could easily see him letting all sorts of abuse occur if he thought it could lead to Inrilatas, with his vast potential, becoming a useful tool.  Sometimes you have to break a tool to craft an even more useful tool.  The Shortest Path.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2018, 04:50:30 pm »
It definitely seems like a Kellhus thing to do - letting the abuse continue and not doing anything about it until it became inconvenient for him. Maybe thinking that one or the other would break in a useful way, or kill the other and be done with it. Since neither happened, or since it was clear Theli could be useful and Inrilatas (btw Inri-latas ...  Inri Sejenus ...) would not grow out of his madness.

As Moenghus Jr. was a dog for the other siblings to sharpen their claws on, Theli was the sacrificial lamb for the alter of Inrilatas. He had such promise, and another strong son would have been very desierable. Alas, not to be.

Very much so. I can see what Kellhus' reasoning would be for this, but the whole thing just evokes such a raw emotional response and makes me dislike him even more.
Maybe because, as I said in the Quorum, this is something that could and absolutely does happen in real life. Take away the Dûnyain context and all that, and you have a child/young teen being sexually abused by her brother, and their father knowing but not doing anything about it (and likely actively making sure the children's mother does not learn about it). It's just an awful situation that can get to you in a way all the rape and torture involving the Inchoroi, for instance, can't, because it's so much more real...
Yes, presumably Kellhus just figured at some point that Inrilatas was never going to be a useful half-Dûnyain, shrugged, and salvaged what broken pieces he could by making Thelli Imperial Adviser, since she could still be somewhat useful that way. I know that is sort of speculative on my part, but the timing can fit if you look at it in detail, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. And I'm not saying that was the only reason he made her Imperial Adviser, the first reason for that was her intellect and memory, sure. But there could be a "two birds with one stone" situation here.
Kellhus did seem to be very eager to have some balanced and useful half-Dûnyain sons, didn't he...and then he ended up with only one of those, plus a broken one and two others who also had plenty of issues, but would be too young to be of use to his plans anyway, even if they had been well-adjusted. The joke's on him, I guess?

On Inrilatas' name: we most likely have a case of an ironic name here, since Inrilatas is all about embracing his depravity as a way of reaching divinity. Nevertheless, I'd like to know what the actual meaning of his name is. I'm assuming it's something along the lines of "____ of Inri". Out of curiosity, do we see the "-latas" particle on any other name in the series (or some similar particle, anyway)?


Yeah, that's brutal, but very much in character for Kellhus.  Theli was smart, but as a female and not one of the Few (plus with her... issues) she was of limited utility to him.  I could easily see him letting all sorts of abuse occur if he thought it could lead to Inrilatas, with his vast potential, becoming a useful tool.  Sometimes you have to break a tool to craft an even more useful tool.  The Shortest Path.

Exactly. Just look at the difference in treatment between Thelli and Kellhus' clear favourite, Serwa. A daughter can be useful for him...if she happens to be of the Few. Honestly, I have a hard time believing Serwa would have been treated the same way she is in canon if she had had the exact same personality but hadn't been of the Few.
We can definitely draw a comparison between Thelli and the Whale Mothers here, despite the differences between them. The Shortest Path, as you said, they all have their one purpose - the Whale Mothers give birth to the new generations of Dûnyain, Thelli is used as an adviser to help guide Esmenet's decisions.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

SuJuroit

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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2018, 07:25:21 pm »
Well, Serwa also had more balance than Theli, and didn't suffer from the sort of eccentricities that affected her sister.  She was also constantly described as being incredibly beautiful, and we know from the 1st series Kellhus found that useful in Serwe (we also know he had no compunctions using that beauty for his own ends).  So even if she wasn't one of the Few, I could see Serwa being of more use to Kellhus than Theli.  But I absolutely agree that if Theli was one of the Few she'd have been treated very differently, ditto if Serwa wasn't one of the Few. 

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2018, 08:21:04 pm »
Well, Serwa also had more balance than Theli, and didn't suffer from the sort of eccentricities that affected her sister.  She was also constantly described as being incredibly beautiful, and we know from the 1st series Kellhus found that useful in Serwe (we also know he had no compunctions using that beauty for his own ends).  So even if she wasn't one of the Few, I could see Serwa being of more use to Kellhus than Theli.  But I absolutely agree that if Theli was one of the Few she'd have been treated very differently, ditto if Serwa wasn't one of the Few.

That's a good point, SuJuroit, Kellhus would definitely use Serwa's looks for his advantage in whatever way he saw fit. The thing is, I keep thinking of how Serwa is much more intelligent than Serwë, and therefore it might not work the same way... But then again, she is also extremely loyal to her father, and I'd assume that would be the same in an alternate universe where she wasn't of the Few.
Non-Few Serwa wouldn't be such an useful piece in Kellhus' game, that's for sure.
A Thelli that was of the Few is an intriguing idea...how would that work in this alternate universe? Like you said, she doesn't have that balance that Serwa does, and is too focused in her own interests. Maybe she expanding her sorcerous talents would be one of her interests in this AU, who knows. She definitely wouldn't have been the beloved Grandmistress of the Swayali Witches Serwa is, lacking her sister's charisma.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

SuJuroit

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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2018, 06:42:24 pm »
I have to assume that non-Few Serwa would reach the same conclusion as canon Serwa; Father is smarter and stronger so I should make myself useful to him and his TTT.

Tough to say what Few-Theli would be, but since sorcerers that can use meta-gnostic cants are pretty much the most valuable military asset imaginable, I'm sure Kellhus would have found a role for her in the Ordeal.

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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2018, 01:43:45 pm »
Aside, but I think pertinent to the last couple comments, Theli was already likely immensely useful as Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa. On her death it takes "fairly every advisor in the room" (badly paraphrasing) to answer the Away Exalt-General's questions in Theli's absence.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2018, 01:52:08 pm »
I have to assume that non-Few Serwa would reach the same conclusion as canon Serwa; Father is smarter and stronger so I should make myself useful to him and his TTT.

Tough to say what Few-Theli would be, but since sorcerers that can use meta-gnostic cants are pretty much the most valuable military asset imaginable, I'm sure Kellhus would have found a role for her in the Ordeal.

True, that's why I mentioned the loyalty to her father in my previous post. In this what-if scenario, Serwa would surely still be useful, just not as useful as canon Serwa is to Kellhus.

This what-if scenario I found myself taking the thread into is just so fascinating to me. That seems the logical course of action for Kellhus, but it's just so bizarre (and somewhat amusing) imagining Few-Thelli (with the same personality, or mostly the same, as canon Thelli) in the Ordeal.


Aside, but I think pertinent to the last couple comments, Theli was already likely immensely useful as Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa. On her death it takes "fairly every advisor in the room" (badly paraphrasing) to answer the Away Exalt-General's questions in Theli's absence.

Yes, very true, and I did mention that before when I speculated about the reasons behind Kellhus making Thelli Imperial Adviser at 12. I guess that in the what-if scenario SuJuroit and I have been discussing, having Few-Thelli with the Ordeal would be a significant loss to Esmenet at Momemn. She would definitely need to invest in more advisors...
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

themerchant

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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2018, 08:36:32 pm »
Kellhus wasn't even about I imagine for most of it.

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2019, 06:01:47 pm »
Just to point out, it seems Inrilatas was locked up around the time Thelli would have been hitting puberty. I don't know the age gap between Kelmomas and Thelli, but I'll assume a couple years.

It could be that Kellhus figured an inbred 1/2 dunyain child would be too much of a pain to deal with, and also highly probably killing Thelli in the event of a full term pregnancy. Or, maybe, that a pregnant Thelli would be tough to hide from Esmi, and explaining the whole thing would be too irritating.

Thelli-The-Useful would be quite a loss to Esmi and Kellhus. Whatever the reason, enough was enough... eventually.
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