[TUC Spoilers] - Cna´ur/Ajokli theory

  • 59 Replies
  • 6119 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2018, 10:31:42 pm »
As others have said, in Earwa what comes after determines what comes before AND the gods exist outside of time.  So it's entirely possible that Ajokli was "born" when Cnaiur walked into the whirlwind.  Cnaiur certainly had enough hatred to fit the bill as the Prince of Hate, although the trickster aspect seems lacking.  Still, I find it quite plausible.  Especially when you consider the priesthood of Ajokli deemed murder to be holy.  That sounds familiar...

Insofar as Ajokli being "different" from other gods, that's because he has access to a reverse prophet; Kellhus.  Kellhus brings him news from the Inward, and that allows him to see what the other gods can't see, know what they can't know.

About that trickster thing, I have an idea. As I understand it, Ajokli fuck up your plans at the last second and that's why he's called trickster. But Cnaiur was manipulated by a dunyain ... And twice! So I would get why Ajokli like to be an ass with people who have "a plan". People with plan can go to hell (literally), you want something? Fine, kill your way to it! Don't mess around with a plan or Ajokli will kick your ass!

 In my mind it fit.

ThoughtsOfThelli

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Thelli's Revenge
  • Posts: 492
  • Approximation of a Human
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2018, 07:39:38 pm »
About that trickster thing, I have an idea. As I understand it, Ajokli fuck up your plans at the last second and that's why he's called trickster. But Cnaiur was manipulated by a dunyain ... And twice! So I would get why Ajokli like to be an ass with people who have "a plan". People with plan can go to hell (literally), you want something? Fine, kill your way to it! Don't mess around with a plan or Ajokli will kick your ass!

 In my mind it fit.

That can very well be the case, and I've wondered if it's possible that CnaiŘr's personality was somewhat warped after his ascension from human to Ciphrang/god. That could explain it too, perhaps?

Also, wasn't there a moment in TWP(?) where CnaiŘr seemed to be possessed by Gilga÷l in the battlefield? Maybe that was an early manifestation of Ajokli seeping in into his past/future (remember that there was already a Gilga÷l/Ajokli debate concerning Celmomas' vision, so the two could very well be mistaken for each other).
"But youĺve simply made the discovery that Thelli madeŚonly without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasűrimbor Kayűtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2288
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2018, 08:09:51 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
That can very well be the case, and I've wondered if it's possible that CnaiŘr's personality was somewhat warped after his ascension from human to Ciphrang/god. That could explain it too, perhaps.

Thought the exact thing when I read. God CnaŘir is likely to be different then human CnaŘir. Matter of fact, people have expressed angles were it makes sense already. Its the boat we missed y'all.
ôNo. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ĹYursalkaĺ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2018, 10:04:45 pm »
Thought the exact thing when I read. God CnaŘir is likely to be different then human CnaŘir. Matter of fact, people have expressed angles were it makes sense already. Its the boat we missed y'all.
Since this was the initial take, only disputed after (and unrelated) to Bakker's Q&As, I highly doubt that. People thought that Cnaiur actually became Ajokli from the very beginning.

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2018, 10:06:19 am »
Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli
That can very well be the case, and I've wondered if it's possible that CnaiŘr's personality was somewhat warped after his ascension from human to Ciphrang/god. That could explain it too, perhaps.

Thought the exact thing when I read. God CnaŘir is likely to be different then human CnaŘir. Matter of fact, people have expressed angles were it makes sense already. Its the boat we missed y'all.

I see it like when ascending, his worst personality traits would be exacerbated at their maximum. So yes it would be a bit different from human Cna´ur, but it would still originate from him.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 02:56:03 pm by Jabberwock03 »

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5766
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2018, 03:03:06 pm »
Really thew me off misquoting that lol.

"Quote from: Wilshire -    That can very well be ..."
Is not from me, its from ThoughtsOfThelli ;)
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2018, 02:56:18 pm »
Corrected.

Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2018, 06:30:59 pm »
@icarium90 (love the handle, btw).

I think youve outlined a lot, as well as others at to why CnaŘir indeed did become Ajokli. In was against it at first, not for personal reasons, just my reading of the story. So many aspects make it very plausible that it is the case. Ajokli was born on the Fields Appalling under the shadow of the Ark. Lines up with myth perfectly. Maybe this is the boat Bakker talked about us missing.

It would also make sense of the remark that Bakker was'nt sure at the end of TTT if the final aspect dominating Kellhus (can't find the right wording...) would be Gilga÷l or Ajokli, as CnaiŘr is both a personification of War and of and Hatred (sry, I can't remember exactly where I read that which I'm quoting).

In addition it would make sense of Cna´ur's obsession with defeating Kellhus: During PON Cna´ur is often described watching/ observing Kellhus for the slightest moment Kellhus would lower his guard/ moment of weakness. This patient waiting could be described as a form not of trickery,  but cunning...
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 06:34:39 pm by Monkhound »
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5766
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2018, 07:01:53 pm »
Yeah that was basically what he said. This explains most, or at least some, of the narrative confusion with Gilgaol and Ajolki.

I wonder though if you can fully just replace all (or nearly all) mentions of Gilgaol in PON with Ajokli?

IMO I like to think that most of what we thought was Gilgaol was actually Ajokli, except maybe some of the non-hate-fueled battled sequences where Gilgaol is mentioned.

Its kind of strange, not knowing this, that Gilgaol gets several mentions in PON but seemingly far fewer in TAE.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MisterGuyMan

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Momurai
  • *****
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2018, 11:29:38 pm »
I actually think the ambiguity between the horned visages between Ajokli and Gilga÷l will continue to play a part.  If anything I think Cnauir became and has always been Gilga÷l.  There's more reason thematically and narratively for Kell to become the Trickster.

IMO it's all but guaranteed that Kell and Cnauir are huge entities in the outside.  Kell sees himself descend as hunger in the inverse fire.  The Judging Eye confirms Cnauir is a Prince of Hell.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5766
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2018, 01:49:43 pm »
They should be at odds with eachother in the Outside - that would just make sense. Kellhus as Ajokli  and Cnaiur as Gilgaol.

Unfortunately, with Gilgaol absent in TUC (plot-wise), there seems less of a chance. "Prince of Hell" seems to indicate Ajokli, and obviously Kellhus' everything seems to indicate Ajokli as well. But, either could be either, maybe Kellhus is Gilgaol? He does war with everything ...

If you think about Gilgaol's place in the Outside (allegedly the strongest god except for maybe Yatwer) and Ajokli (Outcast of the Gods, plotting against them to overthrow them, etc.) it kind of makes sense to put Kellhus in there as Gilgaol and Cnaiur as Ajokli. Maybe not so much character personality, but big-picture plotwise you can kind of shoehorn it in there?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2018, 04:00:29 pm »
An idea that popped into my head while I was reading this discussion, was the following: Could both CnaiŘr and Kellhus have become Ajokli in the end, in a similar way to both Kelmomas and Samarmas became the No-God? Duality and opposition are a recurring theme, and I'm still looking as to why. Any thoughts?
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Blueberry Psűkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2018, 11:25:08 pm »
An idea that popped into my head while I was reading this discussion, was the following: Could both CnaiŘr and Kellhus have become Ajokli in the end, in a similar way to both Kelmomas and Samarmas became the No-God? Duality and opposition are a recurring theme, and I'm still looking as to why. Any thoughts?

Well, my first read was along these lines - I thought Ajokli "became" Kellhus and then he "became" Cnaiur. But I guess I was off on that after much discussion here in TSA. Your point does make some sense as in there is some relationship between the 3, just not sure what.
May your death be soon, slow and painful

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5766
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2018, 11:37:04 am »
I have trouble imagining that both of them became Ajokli in any shared way. That particular god doesn't war against itself but with others.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Blueberry Psűkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2018, 01:53:46 pm »
I have trouble imagining that both of them became Ajokli in any shared way. That particular god doesn't war against itself but with others.

Well ... he's tricky. Maybe this is how it looks to a human ( we readers ) when a god changes his mind/changes course outside of time.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 01:55:18 pm by TaoHorror »
May your death be soon, slow and painful