[TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE

  • 47 Replies
  • 5748 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2286
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2018, 03:04:55 pm »
I don't think there's too much there, I have to ease off the pedal every once in awhile... ;)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5763
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2018, 03:53:57 pm »
You're going to take that sitting down, MSJ?! A clear insult if there ever was one!  >:(
:'( I'm so misunderstood.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2286
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2018, 04:00:26 pm »
Quote
:'( I'm so misunderstood.

I understood ya buddy. ;)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dora Vee

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
  • The quest--it is your master.
    • View Profile
    • Divinesong
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2018, 11:03:44 pm »
Whether or not an ending bothers me simply depends on the story itself. I do tend to expect happy endings in safe, traditional games like Dragon Quest. I DO NOT expect it in more nuanced games, like Skyrim or Final Fantasy(FFX, for example, is actually bittersweet). Happy endings in grimdark would really be one hell of a subversion, imo, unless they are very much earned.

Given how Kellhus made is pretty damned clear that he wanted to possess, like every one, a happy ending in THE SECOND APOCALYPSE would most likely be a esoteric sort of happy ending. So, even if Kellhus DID succeed in stopping the Consult, unless something was done about Damnation, I can't help but think that not much would change beyond that, especially if he knows that those that he wants "saved" would be saved. The Ciphrang would be just another tool. Hell just another kingdom to rule. Every one would be equally enslaved, except poor Achamian, I bet.

I think TUC ending in general was pretty damned fitting and certainly NOT bittersweet, despite some survivors. "Downer ending" certainly fits and I LIKE IT(yea, for the wrong reasons, but still...)! An ideal ending just plain wouldn't happen and I know that. I do, however, agree that an Ajokli ending would have been appalling and would pretty much be the actual end.

As for TNG itself, I can't see it being anything other than bittersweet, with heavy emphasis on the bitter.



Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

BeardFisher-King

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
  • The Trackless Steppe
    • View Profile
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2018, 02:44:30 am »
Since you asked, Jabberwock03.....

I'm broadly in the "Lawful/Good" camp (thanks to Wilshire for the breakdown) in that I've always been rooting for the prevention of the Second Apocalypse. So, the catastrophic ending of TUC was hugely disappointing for me.

My hopes for the final series is for some surviving force in Eärwa to find a way to defeat the Consult and the No-God. It was done once before, after all. But this time, the Ark itself needs to be destroyed.

I'm not very hopeful that any of these goals can be achieved. Nor am I very hopeful that any of these goals are even of any concern to Bakker. His goal in writing this series is unclear to me at this point. But hey, wait and see.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2018, 07:20:45 am »
I'm not sure that to defeat the Consult before the outside is closed would be an "happy ending" as people of Earwa would still be damned for ever.
And I'm not sure not defeating it would be "happy" either as million of souls have to be damned for it to happen.

So, great world building, with no "happy ending" in sight! I love it!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 07:23:34 am by Jabberwock03 »

JerakoKayne

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2018, 09:35:49 am »
I honestly think Kellhus has found some Path he believes to be his route to the Absolute (his first and primary mission, before any exile), and outside the track of other mortals.

For the rest of what he's done, I think the "truth" can be found in asking whether what Kell is doing is actually altruistic or not. Certainly many of his followers believe it, and so do many readers! But I don't honestly think he has ever been saving anyone in the entire world other than himself.

The orthodox Dunyain believe they'll find the Absolute via Techne. Kellhus believes he has found it through Gnosis/(greater Earwan metaphysics).

None of the rest of anyone else, or what happened to any of them matter in the slightest.

Bakker's books are about people who have been used for ends they will never know anything about.

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2018, 10:19:39 am »
I agree, I think too that Kellhus doesn't care at all about Earwa and saving it, and he want to prevent resumption only because it fit his own goals, whatever they are (most likely, accumulation of means).

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5763
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2018, 12:57:11 pm »
...
Interesting, I wouldn't have expected that from you. Did you end up finishing it post-rage-quit?
Also FFX is my favorite of the series. Closely followed by VII probably.

"Lawful/Good" camp (thanks to Wilshire for the breakdown).
This is what I was kind of going with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
If you weren't aware of the classic D&D alignment chart. I'm not super familiar with it myself, never played, but I think I got it right. There might be other characters/endings that match up with that.

I honestly think Kellhus has found some Path he believes to be his route to the Absolute (his first and primary mission, before any exile), and outside the track of other mortals.
The True Neutral stance is a tempting one. Given out of text discussion from Bakker, I'd say this is a pretty likely scenario. Given the in book worldbuilding and story as written, I don't think this can be case. Kellhus spent an awful lot of time doing things that a 'normal' dunyain wouldn't - whatever he was, he was a madman.

Bakker's books are about people who have been used for ends they will never know anything about.
I'd add to this that a reoccurring theme is that people end up creating their own demise. So not only are most people not in control (despite thinking otherwise), they also end up creating the situation that leads to their fall.

What a great series
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2286
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2018, 02:21:27 pm »
Quote from:  Jabberwock
So, great world building, with no "happy ending" in sight! I love it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Not true. There is the possibility that Kellhus wars with the Gods and rewrites the rules of the Outside (damnation/salvation), and Akka and Mimara find a way to defeat TNG. Its a plausible outcome and well within the setting of the story. I seriously have my doubts Bakker goes that way.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Jabberwock03

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2018, 02:24:36 pm »
I highly doubt that's likely, but yeah in theory why not.

Dora Vee

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
  • The quest--it is your master.
    • View Profile
    • Divinesong
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2018, 03:39:48 pm »
"Did you end up finishing it post-rage-quit?"

No. After the rage quit, I simply looked ahead to the end. I read spoilers too. I loved FFX too. AND X-2. :)
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5763
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2018, 03:55:28 pm »
"Did you end up finishing it post-rage-quit?"

No. After the rage quit, I simply looked ahead to the end. I read spoilers too. I loved FFX too. AND X-2. :)
You should finish it!
Ever kill the Dark Aeons and Penance? I lost steam trying to farm ribbons from one of them (valfour I think), after I spent all the time to max out all their stats lol. Something about doing max damage every attack gets old after a few dozen hours.
X-2 was ... something. Got all the summons and all the way to the end, though I might have stopped without killing the final boss, can't really remember. I don't think I liked it terribly much, but hey who didn't like the scenery
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 03:57:10 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Dora Vee

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
  • The quest--it is your master.
    • View Profile
    • Divinesong
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2018, 06:22:35 pm »
Quote
You should finish it!

It's unlikely I ever will.

As for FFX, I didn't really bother with many of the extras. FF8 was the only one where I did everything.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

MisterGuyMan

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Momurai
  • *****
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2018, 11:33:20 pm »
Loved the book.  Loved the series.  Loved the ending.

I want the series to end with Outside Kellhus revealed and he used his own past self as a pawn.  Basically Kell used himself just like he used Proyas.