[TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE

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TaoHorror

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« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2018, 02:59:44 pm »
Loved the book.  Loved the series.  Loved the ending.

I want the series to end with Outside Kellhus revealed and he used his own past self as a pawn.  Basically Kell used himself just like he used Proyas.

Manipulation yields chaos, so it'll be fun to read what all unintended consequences arise in the next reads.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2018, 10:51:53 pm »
Ugh, time paradoxes... oh well, it ain't much worse than "Ajokli caused it all" or "Kellhus will remove the Consult and Damnation and everything will be happy everafter"  :)

Wilshire

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« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2018, 11:39:07 am »
Ugh, time paradoxes...
Agreed, lol. So hard to not make it seem contrived.
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Walter

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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2018, 03:02:53 pm »
I honestly thought this WAS the end until I heard from the AMA that there would be another series.  I think this is a fine ending.  Not all worlds can be saved.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2018, 07:35:18 pm »
Loved the book.  Loved the series.  Loved the ending.
Can't say I 'loved' it.  It made me go numb. But it was a great ending. :o

For the rest of what he's done, I think the "truth" can be found in asking whether what Kell is doing is actually altruistic or not. Certainly many of his followers believe it, and so do many readers! But I don't honestly think he has ever been saving anyone in the entire world other than himself.

The orthodox Dunyain believe they'll find the Absolute via Techne. Kellhus believes he has found it through Gnosis/(greater Earwan metaphysics).

None of the rest of anyone else, or what happened to any of them matter in the slightest.

Bakker's books are about people who have been used for ends they will never know anything about.
That's the big question.  Is Kellhus in it for himself, or for everybody else? :-\

My hopes for the final series is for some surviving force in Eärwa to find a way to defeat the Consult and the No-God. It was done once before, after all. But this time, the Ark itself needs to be destroyed.
Or the No-God turns out to be something we (and the Consult) are not expecting :D

Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2018, 10:05:55 pm »
I'm of two minds about the future of the series. I absolutely think that there is still a lot of story to be told, but I think RSB deliberately wrote TUC to be a sort of "ending just in-case", which is also where I think some (not all) of the ambiguity comes from. I do think certain things which are currently ambiguous will be resolved in TNG, though attempting to pinpoint where and what and how is a fool's errand. However I believe RSB when he says that "we're just getting to the interesting stuff". It feels to me like the entire series has basically been an effort to get to this point, where the No-God is walking and there are Dunyain controlling the Consult and Kellhus has been felled and Earwa must now actually fight the Consult openly in the manner we've been teased with in the Dreams and such. It seems to me that only now is RSB capable of "playing with all his toys" in the sandbox he has spent 7 books creating.

In fact, I think he did such good job making TUC seem like "the ultimate ending of everything" that some folks underestimate what remains of the story, and I also think that it's just hard for folks to imagine a story without Kellhus at the center of things (whether you like him or not), even though it seems clear that this has long been the plan of RSB and there yet remain many elements of the overall story to be told. Additionally, it seems to me that because we got generally got less metaphysical-type revelations than perhaps we expected in TUC (even though there are plenty, and TGO is chock-full of them), then that means there are no more to be had, which I believe is a bit misguided. While I fully expect to always be left with multiple interpretations and ambiguities, I don't think that immediately translates to there being no more revelations left whatsoever.

Really, I think one of the biggest things that makes it hard to get a signal for what is entailed in the next series is that Bakker himself does not fully know what is entailed for it, but clearly he has intentionally left himself more than enough plot elements to be be used as springboards.


SmilerLoki

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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2018, 10:21:38 pm »
I must say, this is a very concise way of putting it.

Wilshire

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« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2018, 04:19:37 pm »
Some interesting thoughts there FB.

You know, if TSA was supposed to be something of an inversion of LOTR or fantasy et al, TUC ends right where the Ring gets destroyed. Obviously, in our case here the Ring isn't so much destroyed as handed directing to Sauron. This means that the story hasn't ended, it has just began.

This obviously creates confusion, since this Beginning is also The End. As you neatly pointed out, we don't know which bits exactly are ended, and which are starting. The entire story structure remains pretty ambiguous without TNG to bookend things, much the same way that PON reads much differently without TAE.
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2018, 08:30:45 pm »
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 08:32:16 pm by Cuttlefish »

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2018, 02:12:20 pm »
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.

That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2018, 06:38:19 pm »
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.

That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.

Perhaps, but it's hard to follow a story when you're not that much invested in the characters that are left alive.

Not that I'm not following, though...

Wilshire

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« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2018, 06:56:49 pm »
Well Akka is alive, and he was probably my personal favorite, so I can't compare my experience to yours directly.
But I do think that the intent would be to start TNG on something of a clean slate.

But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2018, 01:34:35 am »
But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.
I feel like I am the kind of reader that's not in it for the story. But I concur, without there actually being serious original thought, TSA would be unreadable. The same happens when you don't care about any kind of original thought or don't get it for whatever reason (this is not a criticism).

I'm also pretty sure Bakker's aware of this unfortunate reality, but it's what he wants to tell, there is nothing to be done.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2018, 02:42:48 am »
But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.
What do you mean by "simple enjoyment" though? Classic storytelling endings where Kellhus destroys the Consult and conquers the Gods and everybody lives happily  8) ? I mean I enjoy the series, but I'm not sure if my enjoyment qualifies as simple. How do I simply enjoy Bakker?

TaoHorror

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« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2018, 02:52:11 am »
But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.
What do you mean by "simple enjoyment" though? Classic storytelling endings where Kellhus destroys the Consult and conquers the Gods and everybody lives happily  8) ? I mean I enjoy the series, but I'm not sure if my enjoyment qualifies as simple. How do I simply enjoy Bakker?

There are many dimensions to the experience of reading, joy being one of them. Why a scholar may well spend her spare time reading "trash" novels ... for the fun of it. I'm likely the worst kind of Bakker fan - I REALLY enjoyed reading them in light of me not understanding so much of it on my own ( if not for this group, I would have a very different/wrong take on what's going on ). Bakker's description of "evil" ( for lack of a better term ) is unparalleled in my book ( forgive the pun ). I would re-read sections that depict some awesomely mad stuff. I love the reads as those who love terror movies do - for the violence, for the depravity, for the madness. I loved the ending of TUC, it completely blew my mind, so cool, so unanticipated for me. Intrigue and surprise ( that makes sense ) are an author's best weapons in his arsenal and Bakker leverages these tools beautifully as no author I've read before. This stuff is magic to me. The art of it amazes.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 02:53:45 am by TaoHorror »
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