Modern Day Times With A Dunyain

  • 71 Replies
  • 23063 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Frail

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 55
    • View Profile
« on: March 08, 2018, 01:30:29 am »
Who would be the hardest person for Kellhus to crack in today's culture, and how long would it take using normal channels? ... Meaning, he couldn't just abduct the person and have his way with them.

I'm thinking something along the lines of replacing an interviewer, (if politician,) and try to break down that politicians false facade.

I'm thinking Bakker himself, or Ted Cruz. I'd give Cruz about 10 minutes before Kellhus would have him spouting out Truth Shines, and Bakker about an hour, coming to grips with the idea of the Dunyain being real.

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
  • whore
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2018, 03:49:47 am »
Howard Stern would be a tough nut to crack ( assuming Kell didn't show up with a hottie as a gift ). The pope and The Dali Lama would be formidable. And squirrels, because they don't sit still nor understand any human tongue, so could simply be impossible to make any of them love.
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

JerakoKayne

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2018, 09:20:55 am »
I really don't think we are any more formidable than the society presented in Bakker's work. I think that was kinda his point.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2018, 12:07:38 pm »
Do we really need Kellhus though?  Algorithms have gotten pretty close to the same effect now-a-days, the only difference is that they are (usually) used to sell you something.  Not that they aren't, most probably, used to influence political thought too though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2018, 01:33:43 pm »
The way he's executed, Kellhus would be just a normal intelligent, if somewhat overly self-serving, person. So he might start a cult to prey on people who for some reason suspended their critical thinking, but it's not going to be even close to possible for him to sway another intelligent human.

It's actually one of the biggest problems I have with the series. Kellhus just doesn't sound all that convincing to me. Sure, he has some good points, plus some supernatural (and so far considered straight up impossible for a functioning human being) abilities, like learning languages in weeks. But he is tremendously overconfident and ignorant at the same time, and far from infallible. The way I see it, in our world, he wouldn't have more agency than another halfway smart man. And even in Earwa, he got so enormously lucky to even get to the Holy War.

(click to show/hide)

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2018, 02:06:22 pm »
The way he's executed, Kellhus would be just a normal intelligent, if somewhat overly self-serving, person. So he might start a cult to prey on people who for some reason suspended their critical thinking, but it's not going to be even close to possible for him to sway another intelligent human.

It's actually one of the biggest problems I have with the series. Kellhus just doesn't sound all that convincing to me. Sure, he has some good points, plus some supernatural (and so far considered straight up impossible for a functioning human being) abilities, like learning languages in weeks. But he is tremendously overconfident and ignorant at the same time, and far from infallible. The way I see it, in our world, he wouldn't have more agency than another halfway smart man. And even in Earwa, he got so enormously lucky to even get to the Holy War.

(click to show/hide)

To be fair, Kellhus was written by Bakker, so he can't be smarter than Bakker. You'll notice a suspicious connection between Bakker and most of his characters ...

The point is that Kellhus the character/place/plot-device is a super human intellect, so much so that he can do any skill - math, language, politics, martial arts - with ease. He baffles the minds of all others, out maneuvers every person or thing that gets in his way.

This Kellhus, who to all things are trivial, would find anything IRL equally trivial.
Note, Kellhus struggled a bit more with Conphas than anyone else - so I'd say the same is true: take any genius sociopath with massive amounts power and a huge following, and he'd struggle to overcome them... If we are talking about Kellhus as the Prince of Nothing.

Kellhus the infinitely powerful, who knows all and does all, would have no trouble with anything (except maybe if God(s) show up and take over his body).
One of the other conditions of possibility.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2018, 02:30:32 pm »
The point is that Kellhus the character/place/plot-device is a super human intellect, so much so that he can do any skill - math, language, politics, martial arts - with ease. He baffles the minds of all others, out maneuvers every person or thing that gets in his way.
I would say that the point is, Kellhus is better. The extent of him being better is very much in question and what ultimately leads to TUC ending the way it did.

I certainly understand that Bakker as the author is not almighty, he has his limits. But I feel that with Kellhus as the device you described, Bakker bit out more than he could chew. Every time Kellhus is supposed to be awesomely smart and just know everything about everybody around him I must stop looking at what's written and start considering Bakker's intent. I see his intent, of course. But I can't help but find the execution (when we're talking about Kellhus) lacking.

Some ideas are too taxing to implement, if not outright impossible.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2018, 03:22:17 pm »
We're off on a tangent at this point but, FWIW (and without going too Meta here), I agree that Kellhus is less than he portrays and less than what the other characters in the book think. However I do think he's still far above the other humans. As I said, Conphas was literally the only one he struggled with - and that was basically peasant boy Kellhus verse God-General Conphas. But he won that in the end.

The only other hurdle in the book was ... of divine influence - a being capable of seeing all time and manipulating it backwards/forwards. Even the New Consult were planned around (whether or not he would have won, I'm not sure, but certainly a better fight without said god getting in the way).

Kellhus' blind luck was primarily up to the circumfixtion, and some of it might (I shudder at even suggesting it) have been influenced from Moenghus.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2018, 03:28:03 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Kellhus' blind luck was primarily up to the circumfixtion, and some of it might (I shudder at even suggesting it) have been influenced from Moenghus.

Sobering up, Wilshire? LMAO!!! ;)

That is an All-Time TSA admission!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2018, 03:34:08 pm »
To clarify my position, I'm just noting the discrepancy of intended vs. achieved by Bakker in the character of Kellhus, instead of taking intended for granted, as I do most of the time. I have no point beyond that.

Taking intended for granted, from where I stand a super-intelligent human being is outside the realm of possibility in the real world, and that's why there are no Kellhuses.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2018, 03:50:55 pm »
But the initial prompt was 'if there was' lol.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2018, 03:52:45 pm »
But the initial prompt was 'if there was' lol.
Even so, it's just so unrealistic that I can't reconcile it with our world. Like, no joke.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2018, 04:26:19 pm »
Haha, I can see that. Don't know why, but I find that very amusing.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Clozee

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 11:39:50 am »
Sometimes, to fall asleep, I think about what would happen if a Dunyain was dropped into the modern world with some very difficult mission. Like traveling to Proxima Centauri (a planet about 4 light years away). Or diving into a black hole. You know, maybe he's been summoned there :)

Obviously, he doesn't know anything about science, and doesn't even speak any modern language.

Maybe in the modern world he would soon figure out that the best approach is to hide out, master the field of AI by studying over the internet, and program a superintelligent AI to serve his mission.

Could also ask how he would do if he was dropped into ancient Rome. Or into a hunter-gatherer tribe 10000 years ago. Could he still pull it off and how?

Would make for good fanfiction :)



TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
  • whore
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2018, 10:24:32 pm »
Would make for good fanfiction :)

( taps my watch ) ... waiting for it  :D
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff