[TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?

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Clozee

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« on: March 11, 2018, 03:39:44 pm »
It's an unanswered question.

I like the following theory:

Because of Ajokli. Ajokli put the idea in their heads. He could influence them even when they were lightyears away from Earwa, because the Ark and especially the area around the Inverse Fire were such deep topoi. This allowed some of his influence to leak through.

(edit: Or maybe Ajokli directly influenced the mind of anyone looking into the Inverse Fire. After all, it is a "but a window into his House".)

And why did Ajokli put that idea in their heads? Because he wanted the Ark to crash on Earwa, so that eventually, thousands of years later, he could fully manifest in the golden room through Kellhus.

And maybe the malfunction that caused the Ark to crash was due to a miracle wrought by Ajokli.

Also, in TUC's glossary, there's an entry for the Ark:

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Incû-Holoinas—“Ark-of-the-Skies” (Ihrimsû). The great vessel that brought the Inchoroi from the heavens and became the golden heart of Golgotterath. All scholars agree that the Incû-Holoinas was some kind of ship built to sail the sky, that it crashed some time prior to the inscription of the Tusk, but only a rare handful concede the claim that it sailed the Void proper, which is to say, between stars. The most compelling rebuttal of this fanciful notion comes from Ajencis himself, who pointed out that the stars would move relative one another were they not uniformly embedded in a sphere hanging a fixed distance about the sky. Since the relative positioning of the stars is identical in star charts inked from different corners of the World, we can be assured that the Incû-Holoinas “came from someplace distant, but not far away.” This, the Great Kyranean concludes, means the Incû-Holoinas must hail from the Outside and not the stars.

This disagreement in origins forms the basis of the two different families of speculation on the Incû-Holoinas, with Nonmen and Far Antique Mannish accounts generally insisting it’s a vessel constructed to cross the Void, and with more recent Mannish accounts agreeing that it’s a vessel constructed to escape damnation in the Outside. Where the former accounts hold the occupants to be “aliens,” monstrosities from another World, the latter accounts claim the Inchoroi were in fact ciphrangi—demons, in effect.

The tremendous advantage of the latter theories turns on their economy, on the fact that they need posit nothing new to explain either the Incû-Holoinas or the Inchoroi. If the Ark were a vessel from another planet, then it had to be constructed by the Inchoroi themselves, when plainly, given its boggling dimensions, only a God could have forged it. Given the evil, rapacious nature of the Inchoroi, the construction is typically attributed to Ajokli. Some even think the Incû-Holoinas comprises two of the fabled Four Horns attributed to the trickster God in the Tusk and elsewhere. Indeed, some Near Antique lays refer to the conspicuously golden vessel as the Halved Crown of Hate.

Though the question of the origin of the Incû-Holoinas can be assumed to be safely settled, vexing questions abide, not the least of which concerns the actual size of the unholy vessel, and, most notoriously, whether the Consult still inhabits it. Though some promise is to be had in the resolution of the former controversy, Mandate arrogance and delusion promises to render the latter debate an endless mire.

So, this is supposed to be an entry from an in-universe encyclopedia, written by a scholar who thinks the Ark came from the Outside, and was maybe constructed by Ajokli.

We are supposed to laugh at this entry since we know better. We know that the Inchoroi actually are aliens, and the Ark was constructed via the Tekne, not by a god.

But we were also supposed to laugh at Fanayal and Harweel when they insisted that Kellhus was a demon! Even though, in the end, they were partly right. More right than most of us suspected.

So maybe this entry is also partly right, in that Ajokli did have something to do with the Ark crashing onto Earwa.



edit: changed topic title to be more accurate, was "Why was Earwa the promised land?'
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 08:40:32 am by Clozee »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2018, 04:46:59 pm »
I asked Bakker a related question in Reddit AMA:
Quote from: SmilerLoki
Are topoi and anarcane grounds connected to Earwa being the Promised World?

This is what he answered:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
Only insofar as they are isolated, surrounded by arcane grounds. The Inchoroi homeworld, for instance, is entirely anarcane.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 04:52:25 pm by SmilerLoki »

MSJ

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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2018, 02:30:15 am »
Anagke, The Whore of Fate.

They didn't think anything. The were running around destroying planets for millennia, and finally something went wrong and crashed into Earwa, lo and behold. The promised planet. One that can be shut from the Outside.

I think it took time before they even realized it. But, using brute force soldiers, Inchori, they fucked up. Sorcery decimated almost all of them right of the bat. Took a human and Aurang centuries to raise No-God (not having anyone left who knew how it worked.). Pure, blind, luck. Anagke.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2018, 09:59:59 am »
Maybe it's not even the "promised world" but just an average world partly connected to the outside through few topoi, and there is in the cosmos total (or almost total) topoi worlds which would be even better to close the outside from the reality.

But I like the idea that Ajokli used the darkness of the Inchoroï to make them crash Ark in Earwa in the attemp to manifest himself into reality (but then Kelmomas was hanging around being invisible to gods and stuff).

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2018, 03:00:22 pm »
I, personally, love the idea that Ajokli was the original mover. Welcome aboard ;)

IMO, the Inverse Fire seems like it's a tool fashioned by Ajokli - after all, what does it do if not lead to endless millenium of suffering and bloodshed. Basically this: Ajokli found a way to give the Inchoroi his dred knowledge of the fate that exists for any Inchoroi (or their creators at least) who ends up in his corner of the Outside.

We know for a fact that there are multiple instances of the Outside. What if the IF showed Gilgaol's Outside? Wouldn't it basically be the Inchoroi's ideal afterlife? They'd be celebrated as War Bringers and War Heroes of the Galaxy. Celebrated for eternity for their exceptional prowess at war. Millennia of victory, and eternity of heaven.

Ajokli's little corner of the Outside is just hell. He likes to tortuer endlessly his victims. Not all the Gods are like him. This is why everyone that sees into the IF sees the same thing, because Ajokli treats everyone the same in his afterlife. So it's the perfect goad. It makes living slaves of any who see it for the fear it sets into them, driving them to commit horrible acts of mass atrocity. Killing for the sake of killing - not for the sake of Glory and thus cutting Gilgaol out of the equation (maybe).

It makes sense of so many thing, and is my preferred theory of what the IF is and why the Inchoroi wound up on Earwa. Ajokli using it to set in motion is eventually manifestation into the Real fits so well into the world building.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2018, 04:30:05 pm »
I, personally, love the idea that Ajokli was the original mover. Welcome aboard ;)

IMO, the Inverse Fire seems like it's a tool fashioned by Ajokli - after all, what does it do if not lead to endless millenium of suffering and bloodshed. Basically this: Ajokli found a way to give the Inchoroi his dred knowledge of the fate that exists for any Inchoroi (or their creators at least) who ends up in his corner of the Outside.

We know for a fact that there are multiple instances of the Outside. What if the IF showed Gilgaol's Outside? Wouldn't it basically be the Inchoroi's ideal afterlife? They'd be celebrated as War Bringers and War Heroes of the Galaxy. Celebrated for eternity for their exceptional prowess at war. Millennia of victory, and eternity of heaven.

Ajokli's little corner of the Outside is just hell. He likes to tortuer endlessly his victims. Not all the Gods are like him. This is why everyone that sees into the IF sees the same thing, because Ajokli treats everyone the same in his afterlife. So it's the perfect goad. It makes living slaves of any who see it for the fear it sets into them, driving them to commit horrible acts of mass atrocity. Killing for the sake of killing - not for the sake of Glory and thus cutting Gilgaol out of the equation (maybe).

It makes sense of so many thing, and is my preferred theory of what the IF is and why the Inchoroi wound up on Earwa. Ajokli using it to set in motion is eventually manifestation into the Real fits so well into the world building.
The Inverse fire shows a person's fate in the Outside, not different facets of it. Also, Ajokli cannot see Golgotterath/the Ark, he could only intuit something was there because of the extremely deep topos it represented ("some have always smelled your absence").

MSJ

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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2018, 04:42:09 pm »
Quote from:  Jabberwock
Maybe it's not even the "promised world" but just an average world partly connected to the outside through few topoi, and there is in the cosmos total (or almost total) topoi worlds which would be even better to close the outside from the reality.

This isn't exactly correct. Even though topoi do connect to the Outside, so does every individual souls. There are many instances that prove this, but being able to perform the Diamos is enough.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2018, 04:55:28 pm »
The Inverse fire shows a person's fate in the Outside, not different facets of it.
According too ... the Inchoroi? Who then tell everyone that looks at it what its showing?
I'm not saying you have to believe me, but personally I think that makes for a too convenient explanation.

I'll point out that the Inchoroi's Creators where a teknology based race that just happened to stumble into the magical world of the outside just one single time ... it just happened to goad them into their timeless war against the universe ... which just happens to be exactly what Ajokli wants/needs to harvest more and more souls and eventually leads to his ultimate goal to manifest into the Real.

So yeah, the books say that its not Ajokli's tool, I agree with that. Just seems unlikely.

Also, Ajokli cannot see Golgotterath/the Ark, he could only intuit something was there because of the extremely deep topos it represented ("some have always smelled your absence").

And?

Ajokli can see the whole universe, as with the other Gods, thus why the IF even worked when it wasn't on Earwa and it showed Alien creatures that they had souls and were somehow connected to the Gods. That the Gods couldn't see the place were the Ark occupied could have been for any number of reasons. None of which likely apply to the Inchoroi and their Creators en masse.

Its basically the same story as the Tusk the Inchoroi gave to Man so that they'd kill the Nonmen. Earwa (and/or the TSA story) is nothing if not cyclic, Ajokli giving the IF to the Inchoroi to convince them to do his bidding fits into they cycle perfectly.

There's really no logical explanation for the IF existence other than it being a gift from Ajokli. IMO.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 04:57:40 pm by Wilshire »
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False Man

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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2018, 06:48:49 pm »
Quote
The Inverse Fire is naught but a window into my House,” the Dark God-Emperor said.
TUC, Chapter 18

Seems pretty straightforward to me

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2018, 07:03:02 pm »
Quote
The Inverse Fire is naught but a window into my House,” the Dark God-Emperor said.
TUC, Chapter 18

Seems pretty straightforward to me
Is that a real quote? Seriously, I can't say I remember that, but man does that fit into my headcannon :). Thank you!
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2018, 07:25:02 pm »
The Inverse fire shows a person's fate in the Outside, not different facets of it.
According too ... the Inchoroi? Who then tell everyone that looks at it what its showing?

And according to Kellhus too, but I know mentioning this is futile since some sort of unreliable narrator is going to get invoked here...

Quote
I'll point out that the Inchoroi's Creators where a teknology based race that just happened to stumble into the magical world of the outside just one single time ... it just happened to goad them into their timeless war against the universe ... which just happens to be exactly what Ajokli wants/needs to harvest more and more souls and eventually leads to his ultimate goal to manifest into the Real.
This is not the narrative presented in the books though. Their objective is to shut off the Outside, which I'm pretty sure Ajokli wouldn't be down with.

Quote
Ajokli can see the whole universe, as with the other Gods, thus why the IF even worked when it wasn't on Earwa and it showed Alien creatures that they had souls and were somehow connected to the Gods. That the Gods couldn't see the place were the Ark occupied could have been for any number of reasons. None of which likely apply to the Inchoroi and their Creators en masse.
There's some deeper causal stuff going on here I don't fully understand either. Remember that the goal of the Inchoroi is to unleash the No-God. This God of the real presumably carries causal agency. The Gods cannot see the meaning of the Ark, they cannot see it's purpose. The way I see it, Ajokli sensed something was wrong, and basically rolled the dice with realities he could not see in an attempt to break into World, which failed due to the No-God.

Quote
There's really no logical explanation for the IF existence other than it being a gift from Ajokli. IMO.
Well, there's the canon explanation which says that it's a machine that links your frame of reference to your fate in the Outside used to kindle the Inchoroi's zeal in shutting off the Outside.

Quote
The Inverse Fire is naught but a window into my House,” the Dark God-Emperor said.
TUC, Chapter 18

Seems pretty straightforward to me
You're interpreting a literal statement about the Inverse Fire being a window into Hell as something else.

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2018, 07:51:00 pm »
Quote
unreliable narrator is going to get invoked here
Yeah I know, its a problem, doubly so with the IF given its nature, triply(?) given what I'm claiming lol.

Quote
This is not the narrative presented in the books though.
Right. I'm claiming the Inchoroi don't know anything. Which is pretty much true. They are basically skin-spies as far as their knowledge of metaphysics and mission go. Just another weapon race.

Quote
I'm pretty sure Ajokli wouldn't be down with.
I'm not so sure about that. According to Ajokli, the Outside is infinite and cannot be shut (obviously wrong), so what the Inchoroi think they are doing is pretty irrelevant (to Ajokli).

What matters is what the IF makes them do. Its the method they are using that's important, and that method gets him trillions of more souls with their actions, as opposed to none with inaction.

Basically makes unwitting servants of whoever looks into it. Win-win for Ajokli.

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goal of the Inchoroi is to unleash the No-God. ...
As above.

Just as sure as Yatwer is that both her WLWs are indomitable, so too is Ajokli sure there can be no ill consequences of handing over knowledge of the outside to the Inchoroi.

The Gods' persepective is a strange thing to interpret. Ajokli, post giving of the IF (how Anti-Promethean btw, another point for this theory :P ) Ajokli could have then invented a way to get into the world prior to it being shut. Again, confusing as hell.

Quote
Well, there's the canon explanation which says that it's a machine that links your frame of reference to your fate in the Outside used to kindle the Inchoroi's zeal in shutting off the Outside.

And the thing that most benefits from this reaction is Ajokli. I'm not claiming the cannon is wholesale wrong, just that there is something behind it.

Quote
The Inverse Fire is naught but a window into my House,” the Dark God-Emperor said.
TUC, Chapter 18

Seems pretty straightforward to me
You're interpreting a literal statement about the Inverse Fire being a window into Hell as something else.

What is Hell?
It says 'my house'...
The literal interpretation here is that "my house" is Ajokli's corner of the Outside. (Literally: Ajokli's House).

I think to me the less literal interpretation would be to assume that Ajokli was using "my house" to mean "not my house".  And then to interpret the assumed translation of "not my house" to mean Hell(?), and further assume that Hell means everything in the Outside. I'm exaggerating a bit, but still, it seems more literal to take it to mean what it says...

Clearly I don't know the context of the quote (don't recognize it at all) but I think Ajokli would be pretty well aware of his standing in the Outside and wouldn't be using those words so metaphorically.
I'm going to have to look it up later and see what's actually going on.






« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 07:53:07 pm by Wilshire »
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 08:02:27 pm »
Quote
I'm not so sure about that. According to Ajokli, the Outside is infinite and cannot be shut (obviously wrong), so what the Inchoroi think they are doing is pretty irrelevant (to Ajokli).

What matters is what the IF makes them do. Its the method they are using that's important, and that method gets him trillions of more souls with their actions, as opposed to none with inaction.
But this is the crux, Ajokli cannot motivate a mission he cannot see.
Quote
It says 'my house'...
Ajokli's house is hell.

Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2018, 11:28:01 am »
Quote
I'm not so sure about that. According to Ajokli, the Outside is infinite and cannot be shut (obviously wrong), so what the Inchoroi think they are doing is pretty irrelevant (to Ajokli).

What matters is what the IF makes them do. Its the method they are using that's important, and that method gets him trillions of more souls with their actions, as opposed to none with inaction.
But this is the crux, Ajokli cannot motivate a mission he cannot see.
I'm saying his goal was getting more souls, which the IF does perfectly.

Quote
It says 'my house'...
Ajokli's house is hell.
Right. So the IF just happens to show Ajokli's outside, not the outside of all the other Gods.

Far, far too convenient to be even slightly plausible for TSA, imo. THough I realize we've reached an impasse here - hopefully someone else can help us out :)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 02:00:06 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2018, 02:10:54 pm »
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I'm saying his goal was getting more souls, which the IF does perfectly.
So in order to get more souls, he created a device which helped spur a mission he could not see passing through entire realities he was blind to?

Quote
Right. So the IF just happens to show Ajokli's outside, not the outside of all the other Gods.
see
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The Inverse Fire—Xir’kirimakra (Cûno-Cincûlic). Subparticular intentional field machine linking individual observational frames of reference to their eternal fate in the Outside. Given that the Gods are both jealous and connoisseurs, most souls peering into the Inverse Fire discover the fact of their eternal damnation, an experience so profound as to drive all who witness it into the horrifying embrace of the Consult. This was what rendered Mekeritrig an inevitable consequence of Cet’ingira’s survival, and why Apocalypse has always clustered as bees about this perpetually disastrous device

Quote
THough I realize we've reached an impasse here - hopefully someone else can help us out
It's actually funny how often this happens. MSJ not being willing to relinquish of the e-sports thing or his insistence that I be killed because he blended together mine and your arguments in that thread, and being unwilling to change his mind or read the words in any other way. Likewise, you have a hard time letting go of wrong fan theories, it might take Bakker himself (preferably in person to avoid the unrealible narrator thing that has been invoked by a couple of people here in the past) to convince you otherwise  ;)
Now I wonder, where's my blind spot that everybody else can see except myself?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 02:14:44 pm by TLEILAXU »