[MSJ]

Let me just say that Ajokli created the IF and the No-God was never used on other planets, is one of the biggest reaches I've seen. More so than Kellhus loves Esme, which was confirmed. Boom, goes the dynamite!

[SmilerLoki]

This is not how I read Bakker's answers. As far as I remember, everything he said was consistent with Nau-Cayuti being the original Insertant.

[MSJ]

No it wasn't. Its the whole point of Akka's Golden Room dream ending with Nayu, a toothless wretch staring at the No-God. The finally found one who matched the OI.

[SmilerLoki]

I would love quotes, but so far I trust my memory more.

Its the whole point of Akka's Golden Room dream ending with Nayu, a toothless wretch staring at the No-God. The finally found one who matched the OI.

I read that entire scene as depicting the history of the first ever activation of the No-God.

[Wilshire]

Or that it requires sorcery but not necessarily aporetic/chorae.
Again, all I can say is that maybe the mark wasn't visible as whatever was magical was contained within.

This again puts additional strain on your theory, since the Consult now needs to have multiple ways to realize the No-God.

No strain at all - they need magic to make it work. Whether its Aporos, or Emilidis, or New Consult, whoever. Magic is the key - the specific kind doesn't matter since we don't know much else.

For the record, I'm imaging something like the magical soul-powered locks at the Library to be something analogous to this. A marrying of technology with sorcery held together with souls.

Here, I don't see your point. Can you clarify?

Honestly, probably not. I understand why we're not getting through - I see a fundamental disconnect between magic and technology in Earwa where you do not.

...
Absolutely serious question, completely unrelated to the fact that, so far, I disagree. I'm interested and would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Getting rid of all the multi-embedded quote tags lol, lets see if we can have a new discussion.

Crucially, I take it for granted that in Earwa Tekne and sorcery can achieve the same results, since they are working with the same laws of nature. The difference is only in mechanics. Sorcery often has the Mark, Tekne doesn't. Sorcery doesn't work on anarcane grounds, Tekne (presumably) does. Some things are easier to achieve by sorcerous means, some are more effectively done with Tekne.

I don's see anything that would principally disallow Tekne to match sorcery in every respect, while you prefer to think the opposite is true. So far it's only required for the "Ajokli behind the Inverse Fire" theory.

So for me, I take the fundamental divide between Tekne and Sorcery to be both distinct and insurmountable.
To me, the Inchoroi and the Dunyain are representative of the 'meaningless world' analogues. They are, escentially, analogous to what would happen if you took a person from IRL and thrust them into the magical world of Earwa.

Earwa is obviously not 'meaningless' - its got real Gods and Magic. For me, this is one of the major underpinnings of the story itself. Its what makes it a story at all: the very idea that in Earwa purse logic loses every time because the Gods are real. This fundamentally disallows the tekne, and the Dunyain, to have a complete understanding of the World. They require the 'real world' to show them that there is truly meaning infused into the fabric of reality.

I don't mean to get controversial hear, but I think from Bakker's POV its the exact opposite of our reality, at least in his understanding. The idea that scientists bring meaninglessness to the people to incorrectly believe that there is meaning in the world. Its just how the story is structured.

Maybe this sheds some light onto where I'm coming from?

[Wilshire]

This is not how I read Bakker's answers. As far as I remember, everything he said was consistent with Nau-Cayuti being the original Insertant.

I believe you are miss-remembering.

Bakker, out of text I belive, implied that Nau matched the original insertant.

Its not clear what that really meant. IMO, the 'original insertant' was not even inserted into the NG - it was the Ark, which was itself some kind of conscious entity. I haven't been referring to, or considering, this line of thought in the conversation thus far.

At this point, anything that Bakker has said post-TUC is pretty unclear. He was trying to be clever and I think he's made things worse for everyone lol.

[Wilshire]

I think the fundamental question is, can a mundane object interact with the Outside?  My intuition is yes.

Obviously, I completely disagree lol

Also, it just seems implausible to me that Ajokli could interact with the Inchoroi through the Inverse Fire, but could not gain entrance to the Ark and only realized it was there by the void it left.

The reason for Ajokli, or any of the Gods, being unable to get into the Golden Room and/or The Ark, all the Sranc, The First Apocalypse, Inchoroi, etc. etc. is unclear to me. I also don't understand how the proginators, or the Inchoroi, could be damned if the Gods couldn't see them.
If we can believe that some souls find oblivion by staying unnoticed by the Gods, I'm really not sure how living your whole life as invisible leads to something other than oblivion. I don't see how or why the Inchoroi could be so invisible and so damned.

[MSJ]

But, here's my question Wilshire. How do you propose Ajokli going to a meaningless world and giving the progenitors the IF? As you said their world is meaningless and so is the IF. Its technological. For Ajokli to do that, there had to be a link to their world. We know that's not the case. How do you square that. That's the crux of your argument.

[TLEILAXU]

But, here's my question Wilshire. How do you propose Ajokli going to a meaningless world and giving the progenitors the IF? As you said their world is meaningless and so is the IF. Its technological. For Ajokli to do that, there had to be a link to their world. We know that's not the case. How do you square that. That's the crux of your argument.

The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.

[SmilerLoki]

No strain at all - they need magic to make it work. Whether its Aporos, or Emilidis, or New Consult, whoever. Magic is the key - the specific kind doesn't matter since we don't know much else.

What I mean is, even one way to activate the No-God took the Consult of three races to come up with. Postulating that there is more than one way is adding additional variables to the picture which is consistent without them.

Honestly, probably not. I understand why we're not getting through - I see a fundamental disconnect between magic and technology in Earwa where you do not.

Yes, I got that, but what I don't understand is how do you reconcile the Inchoroi Tekne means (the Grafting) with the result of them gaining sorcery, which is, by your given definition, fundamentally beyond Tekne.

Maybe this sheds some light onto where I'm coming from?

Yes, thank you! It's very helpful and enlightening, but I feel that point still stands when we use my paradigm. Then Tekne is the equivalent of our science, but by virtue of being in a world with different laws, it's still able to achieve results that are completely fantastic in our world. Basically, sorcery begins with magic, while Tekne comes to magic only in its advanced stages.

And the Tekne shown in the series is more advanced then our technology.

[MSJ]

quote= SmilerLoki]I read that entire scene as depicting the history of the first ever activation of the No-God.

You've read it wrong. And we have tons of evidence to the contrary. The 2 Inchoroi and a few human sorcerers found the NG. Figured out how it worked. Oh, added some chorale to it for defense against magic (which correct me if I'm wrong, Wilshire said the NG was magical), then Aurang knew it needed a inerrant. So, they start tossing in people, until one works, Nayu. Not the original. The Ark was an entity unto its own self. The Inchoroi called it mother. It didn't need a human to run on. Or, to sustain itself. No magic. All tekne.

[MSJ]

The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.

Where do you get this from. If the Gods don nor interact with their world, no sorcery, then it is meaningless. Know idea where you got this idea.

[MSJ]

In fact TLEILAXU, the whole promise of the story was for Kellhus to turn Earwa into a meaningless world.

[SmilerLoki]

You've read it wrong. And we have tons of evidence to the contrary. The 2 Inchoroi and a few human sorcerers found the NG. Figured out how it worked. Oh, added some chorale to it for defense against magic (which correct me if I'm wrong, Wilshire said the NG was magical), then Aurang knew it needed a inerrant. So, they start tossing in people, until one works, Nayu. Not the original. The Ark was an entity unto its own self. The Inchoroi called it mother. It didn't need a human to run on. Or, to sustain itself. No magic. All tekne.

My interpretation is, they found some knowledge (written or stored in some kind of Tekne device), which included the plans to the No-God, then created or found (can go both ways) the Sarcophagus without possessing the full understanding of its workings. For some reason they decided that a soul must power it. Might have been in the plans, might have been part of their ad-hoc solution. Long story short, they were right and after many tries it worked.

[Wilshire]

But, here's my question Wilshire. How do you propose Ajokli going to a meaningless world and giving the progenitors the IF? As you said their world is meaningless and so is the IF. Its technological. For Ajokli to do that, there had to be a link to their world. We know that's not the case. How do you square that. That's the crux of your argument.

The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.

This sums it up.

Its not that the universe is actually meaningless - the Gods exist everywhere, not just Earwa, and people/aliens/whatever are save/damned on a universal scale.

That's, presumably, what made the proginators/Inchoroi worried about being damned. If they were only damned if they went to Earwa, they wouldn't have spent their lives looking for it to seal it off.

Or, put another way, if we ignore this thread and say that the IF shows them their afterlife via pure tekne, they wouldn't have seen themselves damned. It would have shown that on Earwa if the whole universe was meaningless.

Why, and how, would the IF show damnation when it wasn't on Earwa if the gods could not interact with the Universe except on Earwa?