Seswatha and Nau-Cayūti's fate

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« on: April 10, 2018, 03:41:24 pm »
This is something that I kept wondering about the other day (and that I briefly mentioned on the Quorum yesterday).

In TUC, we have confirmation of Nau-Cayūti's true fate, that after years of torture he was placed in the Carapace, resulting in the activation of the No-God.
The TUC glossary also states that his wife Iėva was tried and executed for his "murder" in 2140, which is something that hadn't been confirmed before.
Quote from: TUC Glossary
Iėva (2112-2140)-Legendary wife of Anasūrimbor Nau-Cayūti, tried and executed for his murder in 2140.
We knew from TWLW that Iėva had insisted in having Nau-Cayūti buried rather than burned as was the custom (and, of course, we know the reason for that).
Quote from: TWLW, Chapter 12
"But you will not die, my heroic husband. Oh no! For I will fall upon your corpse, and I will wail-wail-wail, claiming to the Bull Heavens that you demanded to be buried rather than burned-like a Nonman!"

But what does this mean in-universe? Certainly, once Iėva was found guilty of murdering her husband, her request to have him buried would start to look suspicious. I have wondered if Seswatha in particular could have tried to figure out what had happened to his beloved student (and possible son). It's not that unlikely that he could have realized that Nau-Cayūti had been taken prisoner by the Consult.
Is it possible, though, that eventually he could have discovered (or at least suspected) Nau-Cayūti's ultimate fate? That might seem unlikely...but there are Achamian's changing dreams to consider. Could the dreams about Nau-Cayūti imply that Seswatha knew? This would surely add a further layer of tragedy to the First Apocalypse, particularly to Celmomas' death and prophetic vision and to the defeat of the No-God.

What does everyone else think?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2018, 05:25:01 pm »
I think it's pretty plausible that the request to bury him would certainly be suspicious post-conviction, but considering that we know nothing of how she was found guilty, we really don't know what they would have thought about then finding his tomb empty.

The entry, in stating that she was found guilty of his murder, at least on the face of things, implies that the popular conception was that he was indeed dead.  We simply don't know if she was just found guilty, or her connection to the Consult was revealed.  The latter seems unlikely, because if it was, presumably Seswatha, et al, would have viewed this as a bigger deal than it (seemingly) was treated as.  Then again, we just don't know.  There is a chance though, that this was why Seswatha was so dismissive of Celmomas' declarations, knowing that Nau was well in the Consult's clutches and outside any help.  What could he have really done with the knowledge of the Consult having taken Nau?  And could he have really fathomed that Nau was now the No-God?  Even if he did, was there really a different course of action to be taken?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2018, 05:44:59 pm »
I think it's pretty plausible that the request to bury him would certainly be suspicious post-conviction, but considering that we know nothing of how she was found guilty, we really don't know what they would have thought about then finding his tomb empty.

Sure, we don't know the circumstances of Iėva being found guilty, but I think it's plausible someone wondered about the very specific request to have him buried after her trial/execution. It's not like she would have claimed that because she intended to kill him - after all, cremation would have destroyed all evidence of poison while burial would not. I feel that it's likely that someone noticed something did not add up regarding this supposed "request", even if not immediately after the fact.



The entry, in stating that she was found guilty of his murder, at least on the face of things, implies that the popular conception was that he was indeed dead.  We simply don't know if she was just found guilty, or her connection to the Consult was revealed.  The latter seems unlikely, because if it was, presumably Seswatha, et al, would have viewed this as a bigger deal than it (seemingly) was treated as.  Then again, we just don't know.  There is a chance though, that this was why Seswatha was so dismissive of Celmomas' declarations, knowing that Nau was well in the Consult's clutches and outside any help.  What could he have really done with the knowledge of the Consult having taken Nau?  And could he have really fathomed that Nau was now the No-God?  Even if he did, was there really a different course of action to be taken?

I didn't claim that Iėva's connection to the Consult would have been suspected. I actually don't think that was the case, at least not right away. Most likely, everyone just assumed she murdered her husband simply out of jealousy.
I do agree with you that the majority of people, including Celmomas, had no doubt that Nau-Cayūti was dead. But it wouldn't be out of character for Seswatha, if he discovered the truth of part of it, to not tell anyone about it. After all, a) he had no evidence even if he did have suspicions, b) like you said, it's not like he could do much about it if it was true, and c) even if he was sure Nau-Cayūti had been captured by the Consult, best to let everyone keep thinking he was dead than to reveal his actual fate had been far worse.

That's what I was trying to get at when mentioning Celmomas' death and his supposed vision of Nau-Cayūti (actually Kellhus, wasn't it?). Could be just Seswatha thinking Celmomas was hallucinating, but it could be more.

I know it's a stretch to think Seswatha could have realized that Nau-Cayūti had been placed in the Carapace and not just slowly tortured to death by the Consult. But I believe Seswatha knew far more (not necessarily about this subject) than we and the people in-universe think, so it would be an interesting possibility (and a tragic one, like I mentioned in my previous post).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2018, 06:50:29 pm »
I know it's a stretch to think Seswatha could have realized that Nau-Cayūti had been placed in the Carapace and not just slowly tortured to death by the Consult. But I believe Seswatha knew far more (not necessarily about this subject) than we and the people in-universe think, so it would be an interesting possibility (and a tragic one, like I mentioned in my previous post).

I definitely agree here, that Seswatha knew more of what was going on than even the Dreams or the Saga's tell us.  There is also stuff in the Dreams (presumably) that we just don't know, like how he got off the wall of Dagliash and a variety of other things (if that knowledge is included in the actual Dreams, which we don't actually know).  I don't discount the possibility of Seswatha knowing at least part of Nau's fate, making Cel's vision even more heart-breaking to him, but I was just pointing out that ultimately I don't think his knowing or not would have made a profound difference.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

geoffrobro

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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2018, 12:25:29 pm »
Before reading this thread I pictured the events happening like this: Iėva poisons Nau-Cayūti. He looks dead, she request he be buried. the Inch pulls his casket from the ground and flys off. someone finds the grave ripped open, "hey it was her that wanted him buried, grab her." The Inch or someone hints that shes seen the Inverse Fire so maybe she cracks. or more bakker-like, human torture is nothing to her because shes seen her souls ultimate fate.
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2018, 01:11:52 pm »
Great stuff ToT!  I would love to see the trial of Ieva narrated.  I suppose that this means the Consult abandoned her after making some promise.  A part of me has to wonder about the reliability of the text.  I could see her tried and convicted but then pulled a fake death with the help of the Consult.  Or maybe the records were just changed later, dunno.

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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2018, 01:27:18 pm »
Just thinking back on when Shauriatus called Seswatha the 'tutor' of NC.  I wonder if Ses taught NC the Gnosis?  It would explain how NC took down a dragon.  It might be appropriate or necessary for soul that the Carapace uses to be one of the Few.  Hmm