Serwa seen with the Judging Eye

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SuJuroit

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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2018, 05:27:34 pm »
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The Fanim do not consider the Gods to be Gods, they call them demons in a religious sense, and their views on Ciphrang as actual existing entities are unknown (at least I don't currently remember them being expressed).

Psatma is a good point, yes, and she is much closer to Kellhus than Harweel because of her direct line to the divine. That said, she makes a clear distinction between the Gods and Ciphrang. She is a believer. Kellhus isn't.

Psatma literally states that she worships a demon when pressed by Meppa.  She justifies it via an appeal to power, but she doesn't make a clear distinction between gods and demons at all.  Only that Yatwer is the strongest demon.

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My point is, when Kellhus talks about the Outside and its agencies, his words cannot be viewed in the context of common beliefs. They should be viewed metaphysically, using cutting edge knowledge about the workings of Earwa. Harweel or even the priests of the Thousand Temples can neither corroborate nor dispute Kellhus, they are not in possession of enough information to do so. Someone like Psatma is a better counterpoint, but her arguments are inherently tainted by her beliefs, which are irrational by definition. The Nonmen would also serve as a source of relevant information here.

I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Yes, it's reasonable to assume Kellhus knows more about the metaphysics of Earwa than anybody else, but what does that have to do with how and what the people of Earwa think about Ciphrang?  Perhaps they're wrong in believing Ciphrang to be hungers, although I don't think they are based on all available evidence, but they do think that.
In the WLW, we get the following from Malowebi's internal monologue;

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"If he were a demon, then Zeum should arm for immediate war, now, before he achieved his immediate goals, for demons were simply Hungers from the abyss, insatiable in their pursuit of destruction."

TaoHorror

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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2018, 09:58:21 pm »
Could be clues on the "equation" of salvation/damnation can be learned from the Mimarra/Koringhus exchange. He's damned in the eye and then after a time, he's not. What did he do to "earn" salvation back? He refrained from murdering her. And she forgave him. Was it the change in direction or lack of the act that saved him, both or neither? Does Mimarra ( the Eye? ) have the ability to save people? Questions ...
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2018, 10:31:01 pm »
Could be clues on the "equation" of salvation/damnation can be learned from the Mimarra/Koringhus exchange. He's damned in the eye and then after a time, he's not. What did he do to "earn" salvation back? He refrained from murdering her. And she forgave him. Was it the change in direction or lack of the act that saved him, both or neither? Does Mimarra ( the Eye? ) have the ability to save people? Questions ...
His realization that humanity, ignorance etc. is Holy and his leap of faith.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2018, 01:49:31 am »
Could be clues on the "equation" of salvation/damnation can be learned from the Mimarra/Koringhus exchange. He's damned in the eye and then after a time, he's not. What did he do to "earn" salvation back? He refrained from murdering her. And she forgave him. Was it the change in direction or lack of the act that saved him, both or neither? Does Mimarra ( the Eye? ) have the ability to save people? Questions ...
His realization that humanity, ignorance etc. is Holy and his leap of faith.
So when he grasps that understanding, he's saved, is what your saying - you can't force yourself to become ignorant, not that fast at least.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2018, 03:10:43 am »
I'm definitely inclined to take Psatma's word at the same level of Kellhus.
Therein lies one of the problems with Bakker's plot and its interaction with the narrative structure of the series. If we consider Kellhus an unreliable narrator when it comes to metaphysics, then we have literally no revelations. Nothing is known. Same goes for the Dunsult.

But yes, you're right. I would still trust Kellhus more because his starting position was rational, though it's a moot point.

Psatma literally states that she worships a demon when pressed by Meppa.
This is not at all how I see what happens in the scene you refer to. Meppa calls Yatwer a demon (not Ciphrang). It's completely in line with his beliefs, since he is one of the Cishaurim (whose views on Ciphrang are unknown). Psatma taunts Meppa by accepting his terminology, which she then twists for the sake of psychological warfare.

I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Yes, it's reasonable to assume Kellhus knows more about the metaphysics of Earwa than anybody else, but what does that have to do with how and what the people of Earwa think about Ciphrang?
My point is, their views and Kellhus's cannot be collated to form a united perspective. Just one of the simplest things as an example. When Kellhus refers to himself in the Outside as Hunger, he might easily mean that he is going to become a God, not Ciphrang. It's completely consistent with his terminology, but not consistent with the traditional one. The traditional terminology would mean that his plan is to become a Ciphrang, since the Gods are an entirely different thing.

Perhaps they're wrong in believing Ciphrang to be hungers
Not so much plainly and strictly wrong as being less coherent and using less consistent terminology than Kellhus because of their religious views.

Jabberwock03

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« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2018, 06:29:55 pm »
I see the thread derailed a little, but to answer OP :

I think intention is the main cause for her Ciphrang condition.

Because she is Dunyain, she is damned by default. Then she use metagnostic which damn her even more.
So that's already huge for the damnation part.

But, in contrary to her father, she is part Esme/human and have a heart (she does actually love). Where Kellhus is like a robot, and do horrible stuff but with no intentions (it's just the shortest path), she have to mean all the horrible stuffs she does. And that's why she is view as a deamon and not just damned... damned a lot!
Plus I tend to think that the mere possibility of what she's capable of is enough to "Ciphrangize" her even more. Like she knows she is capable of, let's say, killing an entire country to achieve her ends ; and as she has to intend it to happens...

And that would explain why Kosoter or Cnaļur are viewed as Ciphrang too (they will to do bad). But Nil'Giccas is just damned because he kind of is a good guy (non-guy?) but practiced sooooo much sorcery.

tl;dr
Good guy doing bad stuff/sorcery ==> damned
Bad guy doing bad stuff (with or without sorcery) ==> Ciphrang
Special mention to Kellhus: Neither good or bad, just acting zombie following circumstances ==> who knows?

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2018, 11:09:31 pm »
Could be clues on the "equation" of salvation/damnation can be learned from the Mimarra/Koringhus exchange. He's damned in the eye and then after a time, he's not. What did he do to "earn" salvation back? He refrained from murdering her. And she forgave him. Was it the change in direction or lack of the act that saved him, both or neither? Does Mimarra ( the Eye? ) have the ability to save people? Questions ...
His realization that humanity, ignorance etc. is Holy and his leap of faith.
So when he grasps that understanding, he's saved, is what your saying - you can't force yourself to become ignorant, not that fast at least.
Not so much his understanding itself, but more his acceptance of what had to be done.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2018, 12:32:57 pm »
Damned because of how she uses Moenghus?

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