ARC: TDTCB Chapter 6

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MSJ

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« on: May 14, 2018, 03:59:45 am »
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It is said: a man is born of his mother and is fed of his mother.
Then he is fed of the land, and the land passes through him,
taking and giving a pinch of dust each time, until man is no longer
of his mother, but of the land.
—SCYLVENDI PROVERB

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. . . and in Old Sheyic, the language of the ruling and religious castes of the Nansurium, skilvenas means “catastrophe” or “apocalypse,” as though the Scylvendi have somehow transcended the role of peoples in history and become a principle.
—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Welcome to the Madness! When the Imperial Saik take to the air on the Steppe.....is a scene that struck me and made me want more and more of these books. Very freaky.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2018, 06:34:23 pm »
And here with go with chapter 6!


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But he was not a child. He was the many-blooded chieftain of the Utemot, a seasoned Scylvendi warrior of more than forty-five summers. He owned eight wives, twenty-three slaves, and more than three hundred cattle. He had fathered thirty-seven sons, nineteen of the pure blood. His arms were ribbed with the swazond, ritual trophy scars, of more than two hundred dead foes. He was Cnaiür, breaker-of-horses-and-men.

The inimitable Cnaiür urs Skiötha defines himself. Much like in Xerius' case, this is a character who is overall very insecure, but chooses to address it in a very different way (justified due to their respective cultures, of course). As we would go on to understand as first-time readers, it doesn't matter how much Cnaiür has proven himself as a warrior, how many men he has murdered over the years, how many wives and sons and slaves and cattle he has. To the other Scylvendi, he will always be Cnaiür the kinslayer, Cnaiür the "faggot weeper". The Scylvendi culture really is toxic masculinity at its finest.
There's much to unpack from this quote alone. (I'm not even going to try to go through the inconsistencies with Cnaiür's age again.) With the mention of the sons, we learn right away that Scylvendi place a significant importance in "pure blood" (this will come up again a few times in the story). Also, it's kind of strange that he only has eight wives but close to 40 children. That does round up to about 5 children per wife, which is not implausible in the least, but for some reason I just had the feeling he'd have more wives. (Though it could be that only 8 of them are living at this time, I don't think Cnaiür's wives would have long life expectancies, sadly.) It also occurs to me that we only hear about that one daughter of his, Sanathi, in comparison with the 38 sons (these ones plus Moënghus). Daughters don't really count in Scylvendi culture, or does Cnaiür have a disproportionately large amount of sons versus daughters? Probably the former. (Yes, I know I'm thinking too much about this, but that's what I do.)


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Cnaiür had met Xunnurit only five days earlier, shortly after arriving with his Utemot warriors. Their dislike had been mutual and immediate, like that of suitors for the same beauty. Xunnurit's contempt, Cnaiür had no doubt, was rooted in the scandalous rumours of his father's death long ago. The grounds of his own animosity, however, eluded him. Perhaps he'd simply matched disdain with disdain. Perhaps it was the silk trim of Xunnurit's fleece tunic or the ingrown vanity of his smile. Hatred needed no reasons, if only because they were so many and so easily had.

Cnaiür is an old hand at hatred, I think it's not hyperbole to say that in this series, no one can hate as he does. (Though really, he doesn't hate anyone else as much as he hates himself, even if he can't bring himself to realize that.)
Also, it has been ~30 years since Skiötha's murder, do these Scylvendi (especially the ones like Xunnurit, who had never even met Cnaiür prior to this point) have no more recent scandalous events to gossip about? It's all vaguely ridiculous if you think about it for a while.


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Cnaiür debated whether to discredit the man or to discredit his scheme. "No," he replied, opting for wisdom instead of slander, "I would have us wait. We have Ikurei Conphas"-he raised a thick-fingered hand and clenched it into a fist-"trapped. His horses need rich fodder, ours do not. His men are accustomed to roofs, to pillows, to wine, and to the comforts of lax women, while ours sleep in their saddles and need only their horses' blood for sustenance. Mark me, as the days pass, the fawn will begin sprinting through their hearts and the jackal through their bellies. They will fear and they will hunger. Their fortifications of earth and timber will smack more of captivity than safety. And soon, desperation will drive them to a ground of our choosing!"

Here we get some more information about Cnaiür's personality. He is far more intelligent than his peers, and actually tries to give out sensible advice and formulate a good plan rather than to start his argument by attacking Xunnurit outright. Unfortunately for him (and everyone else), no one really cares much for what he has to say.


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It wasn't so much the man's cunning that shocked Cnaiür as the realization that he'd underestimated him.

Also somewhat like Xerius, Xunnurit is smarter than he seems. Still doesn't mean that he has the good sense to move past the rumours and the indignation and think more carefully about Cnaiür's plans, sadly.


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He graced Xunnurit with a macabre smile, the one that so often reduced his wives to tears.

Fascinating character, yes. Good person, not so much. I pity Anissi and the other unnamed wives, I really do. The Steppe might not be the absolute worst place to be a woman in Eärwa, but it is at least one of the very worst. (There isn't any good place to be a woman in Eärwa, not really, there are only degrees of bad.)


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Neglected herds meant wolves, pestilence, even famine.

Another mention of wolves! Still not seeing a pattern, but no matter, I'll keep looking out for them even if it amounts to nothing of interest in the end.


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The thought dizzied Cnaiür with its implications. Suddenly, everything he had witnessed and heard since joining the horde possessed different meaning: the buggery of their Scylvendi captives, the mocking embassies, even the positioning of their privies-all calculated to gall the People into attacking.

Cnaiür realizes Conphas knows exactly what he's doing. Xerius did mention in the previous chapter that Conphas had extensively studied the Scylvendi culture in preparation for this battle, after all.


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Cnaiür could smell it then, the good-humoured camaraderie that amounted to little more than a conspiracy to mock one and the same man. His lips twisted into a grimace. Always the same, no matter what his claim to arms or intellect. They'd measured him many years ago-and had found him wanting.
But measure is unceasing . . .

See, even after 30 years, these men still can't let it go. Even the ones from other tribes, who weren't affected in any way by Skiötha's murder (unlike, say, Cnaiür's uncle, who has more legitimate reasons, but we'll get to him in a bit).
Even though I don't even drink, I kind of wish there was an official TSA drinking game once I really start noticing how many phrases and passages show up over and over again. "Measure is unceasing", "death came swirling down", etc. (TVTropes pages often have drinking game sections, but the TSA one doesn't. What a shame.)


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"Listen! You must listen! Conphas has gambled on this very council-on our arrogance, on our . . . customary thoughts. He's done everything in his power to provoke us! Don't you see? We decide his genius on the field. Only we can make him a fool. And by doing the one thing that terrifies him, the one thing he's done everything to prevent. We must wait! Wait for him to come to us!"

Cnaiür makes yet another valiant effort at trying to convince all these men that despise him that they are falling into Conphas' trap, but they still don't listen. At least he does get vindicated by history somehow later on, as we learn in TUC.


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He could feel it stir within him, his second soul, the one that blotted the sun and painted the earth with blood. Their laughter faltered before his menace. His glare struck even the smirks from their faces.

Just another moment of pure, unadulterated Cnaiür hatred? Or is this some Gilgaöl/Ajokli foreshadowing?


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Cnaiür always remembered the hours before battle as unbearable, and because of this, he was always surprised whenever he actually endured them.

I really like this sentence because I feel it can apply so well to real life situations (completely unrelated to actual battles, I mean). Anticipation anxiety can be a pain.


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He did know Conphas, in a manner. While raiding the Empire the previous autumn, he'd captured several Nansur soldiers, men who prated about the Exalt-General with an adoration that had captured Cnaiür's interest. With hot coals and harsh questions, he'd learned much of Ikurei Conphas, of his brilliance in the Galeoth Wars, of his daring tactics and novel training regimens-enough to know he was different from any he'd ever met on the field. But this knowledge was wasted on old snakes such as Bannut, who had never forgiven him the murder of his father.

Ah, the beginning of the Cnaiür/Conphas rivalry and parallels.
We learn about the Galeoth Wars here before we even meet Saubon (or any Galeoth character, for that matter). Of course, as we know, he'll get back at Conphas eventually.
Bannut is another interesting character, even though he's only around for this chapter. This is also a man who is no stranger to long-simmering hatred.


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He though of all those he'd killed the first few years after his father's death, all those Utemot who'd sought to wrest the chieftain's White Yaksh from the dishonour of his name. Seven cousins, one uncle, and two brothers. Stubborn hate brimmed within him, a hate that ensured he would not yield, no matter how many indignities they heaped upon him, no matter how many whispers or guarded looks. He would murder all and any, foe and kinsman alike, before he would yield.

The kinslaying certainly didn't stop with his father. And see what I was getting at with Bannut? All these other relatives defied Cnaiür outright and were killed for their trouble. Bannut likely knew the same would happen to him if he tried to challenge his nephew. So he chose to play the long game instead, tolerating Cnaiür as chieftain for decades until a good opportunity to have him killed presented itself.
Minor, random aside - Cnaiür is grouping "foe" and "kinsman" there as two separate categories, but there does seem to be considerable overlap, don't you think?


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They all want me dead.

Yes, yes they do, Cnaiür, though unfortunately for them, you're not easy to kill.


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He whispered a memorial to the Dead-God.

Is this the first mention of Lokung in the series? I think it is...


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"You," the old warrior said, "shall be measured this day, Cnaiür urs Skiötha. Measure is unceasing."

"Measure is unceasing", again, time to drink if there was an actual drinking game!
Bannut is another character I definitely grew to appreciate more in this reread. His cold, calculating hatred is just as unceasing as measure (and his nephew's own legendary hatred).


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"Xunnurit remembered well the favour Yursalka did him!" he cried.
Cnaiür stared at him in horror. "What have you done?"
"Killed you! Killed the kin-slayer! The weeping faggot who'd be our chieftain!"

He keeps gloating and taunting his nephew even as he's dying. If this man had only lived a few more years, I'm sure he could have reached Ciphrang-level as well.
Also - Yursalka's favour was simply marrying Xunnurit's daughter? Nothing else is ever mentioned, but it doesn't really seem like enough as a favour. Though she was "the deformed one", maybe Yursalka was the only one willing to marry her when nobody else would? (Poor girl.)


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"I watched you that night!" Bannut wheezed, his voice growing more pinched with agony. "I saw the truth of what"-his body cramped and shook about a wracking cough-"what happened those thirty years past. I told all that truth! Now the Utemot will be delivered from the oppression of your disgrace!"
"You know nothing!" Cnaiür cried.
"I know all! I saw the way you looked at him. I know he was your lover!"
Lover?
Bannut's eyes were beginning to glass over, as though he looked into something bottomless. "Yours is the name of our shame," he gasped. "By the Dead-God I would see it blotted out!"
Cnaiür's blood felt like gravel. He turned away to blink back tears.
Weeper.

This is amazing, Bannut keeps going at it and letting Cnaiür know exactly what and how he knew about him and Moënghus (and was the one to tell everyone else, apparently), true classic villain monologue style.
I can't help but be reminded of Kussalt's dying declaration of hate to Saubon in TWP, though Bannut's is far more epic.
Did Moënghus know Bannut had seen him and Cnaiür together, I wonder? Did he plan for it to happen? Wouldn't put it past him...


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"Who?" he roared in their womanish tongue. "Who among you shall take the knife to my arms?"

A true TSA classic, this moment.


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It was Balait, his second wife's eldest brother, someone he'd always respected.

Glad to see that there was at least one person that got along with Cnaiür. So, of course he dies 3 pages later.


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Conphas had withdrawn his Kidruhil at the battle's onset to throw them against the Scylvendi centre. And he'd given his Columns false standards in order to deceive them into thinking he'd depolyed his main strength across his flanks. The Exalt-General wanted the centre.

Too late, Cnaiür once again figures out Conphas' plan...


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"A School, Bala! Conphas has brought a School!"

...because as it turns out, they are well and truly doomed.
Yet another classic PON moment.


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So like my father, he thought, then darkness came swirling down.

And here it is, the moment something comes swirling down. Not death this time, though. (Is this the first time this expression is used, or did I miss one or more in the previous chapters?)
There's also a parallel here to one of Esmenet's later POV chapters, in which she thinks "So like my daughter", if I remember correctly. Might just be coincidence, though.


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A rough hand clasped Cnaiür's shoulder, peeled him from the muck. Eyes half-open to the setting sun. Limbs tensed in semblance of rigor. Soil-choked mouth drawn back in the sardonic grin. No breath.

I must say, Cnaiür does an impressively good job of playing dead here. How did he manage to hold his breath for so long? Those soldiers were around him for quite a while...


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Mine. My prize.

That expression also makes its first appearance in this chapter. It starts with a Chorae, it all goes downhill from here. (Is this the Chorae he eventually uses on Moënghus in TTT? Pretty sure it is...)


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For an absurd moment, he felt the queer exultation of one who'd prophesied his own destruction. He'd told Xunnurit, the eight-fingered fool. They'd thought him an old woman, a spinner of preposterous fears. Where was their laughter now?

He doesn't even get a moment of bitter acknowledgement he was right all along (well, not until much, much later), because everyone is dead. Sad.


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Cnaiür had fought too many borderland skirmishes not to respect them as warriors, but in the end he despised the Nansur the way all Scylvendi despised them: as a mongrel race, a kind of human vermin, to be hunted to extinction if possible.

Another reminder that the Scylvendi really despise people of other ethnicities, especially everyone in the Nansur Empire.
It kind of makes me wonder if half-Norsirai Moënghus the Younger will have problems because of this given his situation at the end of TUC. But then again, he has much bigger problems to worry about.


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Men who made sport with men.

Of course that this is the very worst thing about the Nansur to the extremely repressed and self-loathing Cnaiür.


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Then he sobbed. Wept.
Weeper . . .
Bannut cackling, spitting up milky blood.
"I saw the way you looked at him! I know you were lovers!"
"No!" Cnaiür cried, but his hatred failed him.

Uncle Bannut's dying words will keep coming back to haunt him.
This has to be one of the very few times - if not the only time - that Cnaiür's hatred actually fails him.


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"I'm afraid it would be irresponsible for me to disclose more, Martemus. Soon, perhaps, but not now. My triumph here, as magnificent, as divine as it is, will be sackcloth and ashes compared with what follows. Soon, all the Three Seas wil celebrate my name . . .  Well, you're more soldier than officer. You understand that oftentimes commanders require their subordinates' ignorance as much as their knowledge."

Conphas has plans within plans, and all his going his way so far. We also start to get an inkling that much like his uncle, he thinks of himself as divine. Not because of any underlying insecurity in his case, though.


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"Alas, Martemus, if I were to tell you all I know, you'd still suffer the same deficit. Answers are like opium: the more you imbibe, the more you need. Which is why the sober man finds solace in mystery."
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"Intellect, Martemus. War is intellect."

Conphas also has some of the best quotes.


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With his father's shameful death, he'd fled and crawled into the name of his people, the Scylvendi, who were the wrath of Lokung, more vengeance than bone or flesh.

Lokung is first mentioned by name instead of being referred to as the Dead-God as earlier. Cnaiür does seem to embody the "wrath of Lokung" very well, and will do so even more in the future.


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Cnaiür sits in the gloom of the Chieftain's great yaksh as it stood twenty-nine years ago.

I'm kind of thrown out of the flashback by noticing the timing of Skiötha's death has shifted from 30 to 29 years before. Actually, it should even maybe be 31 years before, seeing as it is 4110 and the glossary has his death taking place in 4079. I'm choosing to ignore it for now by assuming it hasn't been 31 full years yet and/or they are rounding the number up/down to 30.


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The White Yaksh has seen many such scenes, but this time, one of the slaves, a Norsirai man, abandons the shadows and steps into firelight. He lifts his face and addresses the astonished tribesmen in perfect Scylvendi-as though he himself were of the land.
"I would make you a wager, Chieftain of the Utemot."
Cnaiür's father is dumbstruck, both by such insolence and by such a transformation. A man hitherto broken has become as august as any King. Only Cnaiür is not surprised.

We learn about the circumstances of Skiötha's death via Cnaiür's flashback.
Moënghus has already learned their language after what, a few months? The Dûnyain's language skills are just so ridiculous (as previously discussed in another thread).


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"But I would wager my life with you, Skiötha."
A slave speaking a name. How it overturns the ancient ways, upends the fundamental order!
Skiötha gropes this absurdity and finally laughs. Laughter makes small. Fury would acknowledge the depth of this contest, would make one a contestant. And yet the slave knows this.
So the slave continues: "I have watched you, Skiötha, and I have wondered at the measure of your strength. Many here so wonder . . . Did you know this?"
(...)
Then Skiötha, fearing to look into the faces of his kinsmen, says, "I have been measured, slave."
(...)
"But measure," the slave replies, "is not something accomplished and then forgotten, Skiötha. Old measure is merely grounds for the new. Measure is unceasing."

Moënghus plays Skiötha perfectly. Like Conphas, he dares interfere with the sacred and static Scylvendi tradition, and uses that to manipulate them.
And yes, all together now: "measure is unceasing".


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And the Norsirai slave's pale face turning to him, the blue eyes bright, more encompassing than any sky. Summoning eyes! Eyes that yoke, that speak:
Do you remember your part?
Cnaiür has been given a script for this moment.
From among the seated man, he says, "Are you afraid, Father?" Mad words! Treacherous and mad!
A stinging look from his father. Cnaiür lowers his eyes. Skiötha turns to the slave and asks with contrived indifference, "What, then, is your wager?"
And Cnaiür is gripped by the terror that he might die.
Fear that the slave, Anasûrimbor Moënghus, might die!
Not his father-Moënghus . . .
Afterward, when his father lay dead, he had wept before the eyes of his tribe. Wept with relief.
At last, Moënghus, the one who had called himself Dûnyain, was free.

Cnaiür was also manipulated to be an accomplice to the character whose name is finally given as Anasûrimbor Moënghus, Kellhus' mysterious father (and memetic master manipulator).
Another parallel here. Young Cnaiür openly weeps after Moënghus kills Skiötha. Just like Moënghus the Younger does in front of all the Scylvendi when Cnaiür goes off to face the Whirlwind at the end of TUC.



This comment is, unsurprisingly for me, way too long already, so this is it for this chapter.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 06:36:14 pm by ThoughtsOfThelli »
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2018, 07:08:01 pm »
That's a great post, ThoughtsOfThelli :)

Also, it's kind of strange that he only has eight wives but close to 40 children. That does round up to about 5 children per wife, which is not implausible in the least, but for some reason I just had the feeling he'd have more wives.

His kids are not necessarily all legitimate?  Does he have slaves and/ or concubines?

Moënghus plays Skiötha perfectly. Like Conphas, he dares interfere with the sacred and static Scylvendi tradition, and uses that to manipulate them.

It doesn't really scan that if the Scylvendi are as predictable as Conphas says they are that no-one else other than him and Moenghus has been able to get one over on them.  You would think that any Nansur general worth his salt would spend time studying the Scylvendi.
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2018, 07:46:02 pm »
That's a great post, ThoughtsOfThelli :)

I'm glad you liked my ridiculously long post. ;)


His kids are not necessarily all legitimate?  Does he have slaves and/ or concubines?

That's probably it, though the term "wife" in Eärwa seems to have a looser definition than we'd expect. Look, for instance, at how Esmenet was considered Akka's wife, or Serwë Kellhus', when none of those couples ever had any kind of binding marriage ceremony performed. Based on that, I would assume Cnaiür would count concubines as wives. Full-blooded Scylvendi women probably are the only ones who count as legitimate wives, though, and they do seem to have marriage ceremonies, as mentioned with Yursalka and Xunnurit's daughter. (I really should make a thread about marriage in Eärwa someday, this is something that I've always been curious about.)
But I'm probably making a big deal out of this anyway, who knows how many wives the average Scylvendi warrior even has. An average of 4-5 children per wife doesn't seem that strange either.


It doesn't really scan that if the Scylvendi are as predictable as Conphas says they are that no-one else other than him and Moenghus has been able to get one over on them.  You would think that any Nansur general worth his salt would spend time studying the Scylvendi.

A good point, admittedly something I'd never though about before because military strategy and the like is not really something I have much of an interest in (or know much about). Maybe previous generals didn't feel like it was worth it to attack the Scylvendi in a more global scale and preferred to focus their military efforts on other nations?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Dora Vee

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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2018, 05:18:09 pm »
I was actually shocked that people would be so openly disrespectful to CNAUIR of all people. This is a guy who could kill pretty much everything in his path and yet they're calling him a "faggot weeper"? A guy like that should be able to wear women's clothes and press wild flowers and STILL command whatever the hell he wants to command.

Yea, toxic masculinity indeed. It affects a couple other men too. And I do think Bakker is trying to show how patriarchy (and anti-gay sentiment) can be as damaging to men as it is with women.

"War is Intellect" is my favorite quote. :) I was inspired to make some Griffith graphics based on that quote. Nevermind, of course, that Conphas and Griffith are two entirely different characters. Still, I can see Griffith saying it.

Here's the album: https://imgur.com/a/xhz7Phg
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2018, 05:43:46 pm »
I was actually shocked that people would be so openly disrespectful to CNAUIR of all people. This is a guy who could kill pretty much everything in his path and yet they're calling him a "faggot weeper"? A guy like that should be able to wear women's clothes and press wild flowers and STILL command whatever the hell he wants to command.

It's baffling, it really is. You'd think that the other Utemot would at least get a hint after he killed ten close relatives in quick succession after his father's death. The warriors from the other tribes (like Xunnurit) I can kind of understand, they had never met him in person before and could think his reputation was overblown or something. It's insane how only after he returned from Shimeh did they acknowledge him as a man to be feared.


Yea, toxic masculinity indeed. It affects a couple other men too. And I do think Bakker is trying to show how patriarchy (and anti-gay sentiment) can be as damaging to men as it is with women.

Very true. At least Akka doesn't seem to have faced the same kind of prejudice over the relationship he had with his cellmate Sancla (and other male lovers he might have had). (Mentions of Akka's bisexuality do seem to disappear completely after PON, though.)


"War is Intellect" is my favorite quote. :) I was inspired to make some Griffith graphics based on that quote. Nevermind, of course, that Conphas and Griffith are two entirely different characters. Still, I can see Griffith saying it.

Here's the album: https://imgur.com/a/xhz7Phg

Nice! :D And despite their differences, I think "war is intellect" (and Conphas' other greatest hits) would be fully in character for Griffith to say/think.
I wish someone who had read both TSA and Berserk would make a short crossover comic or something. Griffith meeting Conphas and/or Kellhus, Cnaiür meeting Guts...I'd love to see that.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

MSJ

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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2018, 06:13:49 pm »
Add to all that the fact that less then a decade ago, Cnaüir is War Leader against Fanim at Xirkurta(sp?), and leads them to a crushing blow. How can't they know of Cnaüir? Your telling me that they forgot?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2018, 06:32:01 pm »
Add to all that the fact that less then a decade ago, Cnaüir is War Leader against Fanim at Xirkurta(sp?), and leads them to a crushing blow. How can't they know of Cnaüir? Your telling me that they forgot?

I was really trying to give those non-Utemot Scylvendi the benefit of the doubt...but you're right, considering the events of Zirkirta, they don't really have much of an excuse, do they?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Dora Vee

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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2018, 06:56:41 pm »
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Very true. At least Akka doesn't seem to have faced the same kind of prejudice over the relationship he had with his cellmate Sancla (and other male lovers he might have had). (Mentions of Akka's bisexuality do seem to disappear completely after PON, though.)

No, but then again, he wasn't raised by the Scylvendi. Proyas does face similar prejudices as Cnaiur, but not as openly and it's only evident in TAE.


Quote
I wish someone who had read both TSA and Berserk would make a short crossover comic or something. Griffith meeting Conphas and/or Kellhus, Cnaiür meeting Guts...I'd love to see that.

Oh wow! That would be pretty cool, especially if it turns out that they somehow shared the same world.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2018, 07:01:31 pm »
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I was really trying to give those non-Utemot Scylvendi the benefit of the doubt...but you're right, considering the events of Zirkirta, they don't really have much of an excuse, do they?

None. None at all. But,  we find out after the battle starts why they ignored him, don't we? It was all a set up to kill the Many-Blooded Utemot Chief...
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 07:20:08 pm »
No, but then again, he wasn't raised by the Scylvendi. Proyas does face similar prejudices as Cnaiur, but not as openly and it's only evident in TAE.

True, but I was trying to get at how characters from other cultures seem to face less prejudice (I guess I wasn't very clear in the previous comment, sorry about that).
The Norsirai cultures seem to heavily condemn homosexuality as well. We have the example you mentioned, with Saubon's reaction at Proyas revealing Kellhus raped him. In TUC Sorweel also refers to it as "a great shame", and in this case there was also no consent in Sorweel's part. Actually, it's kind of depressing when you think about how Akka seems to be the only character to have had a consensual sexual relationship with another man. Moënghus didn't outright rape Cnaiür, but he was manipulating him the whole time, not to mention how Cnaiür was a teenage boy while Moënghus was a grown man.



Oh wow! That would be pretty cool, especially if it turns out that they somehow shared the same world.

That wouldn't be the craziest multiverse theory I've heard, especially since there are quite a few similarities. Damnation seems to be very widespread in the Berserk universe as well...
I should ask Quinthane if he has read Berserk, he seems to be the only person producing TSA fanart these days. It's at times like these that I wish I had actual drawing skills.



None. None at all. But,  we find out after the battle starts why they ignored him, don't we? It was all a set up to kill the Many-Blooded Utemot Chief...

Amazing how they took the time to craft a conspiracy to have Cnaiür killed during the battle, but not to, you know, try to think of a better (or at least alternate) battle plan. You'd think at least one or two people in that council would have some more common sense and see Cnaiür had a point about Conphas' plan, no matter how much they hated him, but no.
I blame Bannut, he seems to have been the mastermind behind the whole plot. Not to mention he seems to have orchestrated the whole smear campaign against Cnaiür from the very start (if he was not lying and was indeed the one who started spreading the information that Moënghus and Cnaiür were lovers).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2018, 07:47:25 pm »
The scylvendi seem to be not so much the people of war as they are the people of Hate. Cnaiur is the best among them, in either case. No one hates like a scylvendi.

Also I love this moment "‘A School, Bala! Conphas has brought a School!’"

BTW, if we're keeping track of random things, " X was not so much Y as it was Z" is a formula that plays out many times throughout.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2018, 08:05:40 pm »
Amazing how they took the time to craft a conspiracy to have Cnaiür killed during the battle, but not to, you know, try to think of a better (or at least alternate) battle plan. You'd think at least one or two people in that council would have some more common sense and see Cnaiür had a point about Conphas' plan, no matter how much they hated him, but no.
I blame Bannut, he seems to have been the mastermind behind the whole plot. Not to mention he seems to have orchestrated the whole smear campaign against Cnaiür from the very start (if he was not lying and was indeed the one who started spreading the information that Moënghus and Cnaiür were lovers).

Well, I think the constant victories over the Nansur and the more recent victory versus the Fanim have given them the idea that they simply can't lose, and especially not lose big.  So what if it cost them a bit to get rid of Cnaiür, because their victory is assured even with some extra losses.  Except, this time is different and they pay dearly for that...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2018, 09:22:38 pm »
The scylvendi seem to be not so much the people of war as they are the people of Hate. Cnaiur is the best among them, in either case. No one hates like a scylvendi.

Congratulations, Wilshire, you just came up with a great new line to put in an hypothetical TSA t-shirt. ;)


Also I love this moment "‘A School, Bala! Conphas has brought a School!’"

It's just so quotable, and a great moment overall (even if it does end so badly for poor Bala, who seems to have been Cnaiür's only friend).


BTW, if we're keeping track of random things, " X was not so much Y as it was Z" is a formula that plays out many times throughout.

You're right, that one does pop up often as well (and should be part of the hypothetical drinking game). I guess I was just paying more attention to "measure is unceasing" and of course to the classic "X came swirling down".


Well, I think the constant victories over the Nansur and the more recent victory versus the Fanim have given them the idea that they simply can't lose, and especially not lose big.  So what if it cost them a bit to get rid of Cnaiür, because their victory is assured even with some extra losses.  Except, this time is different and they pay dearly for that...

Makes sense. They got too overconfident, and Conphas bringing a School seems to have been completely unprecedented, so no wonder that took them off guard. I still think the plot to kill Cnaiür was given too much importance (even taking what you said into account), but that's just the Scylvendi for you. Grudges will prevail over common sense.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018, 11:19:07 pm »
I have a lot of quotes on things previously discussed I want to post, but will later. Strapped for time. A quick rundown here.

Firstly, we have met The Breaker of Men and Horses, Many-Blooded killer named Cnaüir urs Skiotha! My favorite character, hands down in Fantasy. There's just so much to this guy. His insecurities, his domination, and what goes unnoticed by most.....his intellect.. He knows somethings afoot, we can hear his doubt throughout this chapter. Yet, he is of the People. He does his duty, in Cnaüir fashion. His first battle scene shows his utter madness and lust for killing. It also shows how smart he is. How he saves his life, thanks for the chorae pops! And, his ingenuity to fake dead.

"A school Bala, Conphas has brought a school." Loved this moment, aa I said before. When the Saik took to the sky, was the eeriest thing I have ever read. Crazy, yet captivating. I loved it. The shining of the eyes and mouth is what I think really freaked me out there.

Conphas. He is really, truly brilliant. He lured the People into hia trap. Woulsnt have if the Peole listened to Cnaüir, but whats done was done. War ia Intellect! Another great hypothetical TSA shirt!

Dont have time to find quote, but Cnaüir wakes to the rush of Cataract. Is it the river? Or, as some have debated, Moe? I tend to lean towards the river, because with the Canta of Calling, you must know where the receiver of the dream is.

All in all, one of my favorite chapters in the book.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,