Poll

Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?

Achamian
3 (10.7%)
Esmenet
0 (0%)
Mimara
0 (0%)
Moėnghus the Younger
3 (10.7%)
Serwa (assuming she survived)
2 (7.1%)
Malowebi
3 (10.7%)
The Boy (aka Crabicus)
7 (25%)
Saccarees (assuming he survived)
1 (3.6%)
New character(s) (feel free to speculate on who exactly)
3 (10.7%)
Other (returning characters from PON or TAE? please specify)
6 (21.4%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2018, 04:16:54 pm »
Its sad Iyokus never really came back. Maybe some soul wrenching suffering in the Outside.

Probably the only way we'd see him again, yes (maybe barring flashbacks?), as it doesn't seem like he'd be anywhere near "Ciphrang-level" of damnation. And I agree with you, Iyokus was severely underused during TAE - I know he was more important in PON, but still, we could have had at least one or two scenes with him during the Ordeal chapters. He was only mentioned a couple of times during TJE, TWLW and TGO and then came back to be killed by a Ciphrang. Sad.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2018, 10:05:35 pm »
I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up  that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).

It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2018, 10:21:38 pm »
I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up  that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).

It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.

I agree. I seem to remember a scene where Iyokus expressed his opinion during a meeting or something, but that was about it. For three books, he was almost entirely in the background. Which is indeed strange, considering this is a secondary character that had an important role in the last series and (which is maybe more relevant for TAE) that was Kellhus' tutor in the Daimos in between series.
It's possible that Bakker felt that he just didn't have the time to include anything with Iyokus along with all the other ongoing plotlines, but it's still disappointing. We just get a short scene with him (and he wasn't even referred to by name, which resulted in some people not even noticing that he died...) and then he dies. I haven't heard of any deleted scene involving him, though, so maybe dropping a possible Iyokus subplot (if it did happen) was an early decision?
Like you said, we had those scenes with Saccarees and Carindūsū. Iyokus' role in TAE is even smaller than that of Obwė Gūswuran (Mysunsai Grandmaster) and Temus Enhorū (Imperial Saik Grandmaster), who aren't that important as characters, but are at least mentioned frequently. It's almost a glaring absence, every single Grandmaster of a School in the Ordeal except for Iyokus (until his only and last scene) has a minor role.
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-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

profgrape

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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 03:19:24 pm »
I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up  that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).

It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.

I agree. I seem to remember a scene where Iyokus expressed his opinion during a meeting or something, but that was about it. For three books, he was almost entirely in the background. Which is indeed strange, considering this is a secondary character that had an important role in the last series and (which is maybe more relevant for TAE) that was Kellhus' tutor in the Daimos in between series.
It's possible that Bakker felt that he just didn't have the time to include anything with Iyokus along with all the other ongoing plotlines, but it's still disappointing. We just get a short scene with him (and he wasn't even referred to by name, which resulted in some people not even noticing that he died...) and then he dies. I haven't heard of any deleted scene involving him, though, so maybe dropping a possible Iyokus subplot (if it did happen) was an early decision?
Like you said, we had those scenes with Saccarees and Carindūsū. Iyokus' role in TAE is even smaller than that of Obwė Gūswuran (Mysunsai Grandmaster) and Temus Enhorū (Imperial Saik Grandmaster), who aren't that important as characters, but are at least mentioned frequently. It's almost a glaring absence, every single Grandmaster of a School in the Ordeal except for Iyokus (until his only and last scene) has a minor role.

A couple of ideas on why this might have been:

1. He knows too much.  As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story.  So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat. 

2. Optics.  Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos.  The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet.   So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2018, 06:42:02 pm »
A couple of ideas on why this might have been:

1. He knows too much.  As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story.  So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat. 

2. Optics.  Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos.  The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet.   So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.

Yeah I think your second point can work for sure, at least to explain his lack of presence during the strategy and councils and so forth (interesting, for example, how Iyokus doesn't even show up for moments like when the Believer-Kings gather or the Last Whelming -- I can't think of any reason off-hand other than what you suggest that would make sense for that).

Your first point is something I always flip-flop on with RSB. On the one hand, it's definitely fairly clear when certain POVs are held off (like the lack of an Aurang POV in all of TAE aside from a few snippets in TUC, presumably in order to avoid mention of the Mutilated), but at the same time he seems to have not have much of a problem giving a POV with very "selective disclosure". Pretty much every Kellhus POV in TAE does this, for example -- despite seeing his inner thoughts, to the extent of literally glimpsing his experience in the Outside, we ultimately are left in the dark about a great number of Kellhus's decisions and his ultimate plans or goals. Obviously part of this is just to secure the sense of tension surrounding the character and the Ordeal and so forth, but I think it extends to other characters as well. Serwa, for example, almost certainly knows about things we "aren't supposed to know" but RSB just avoids that stuff (or consider that, throughout all of the Aurang POVs in PON, up to and including the moments when he first realizes an Anasurimbor has returned, never once does he ruminate upon the fact that Kellhus's ancestor Nau-Cayuti was the freakin' No-God -- I know Aurang nor the Consult in general don't seem to realize the significance of using an Anasurimbor for the Subject, but still).

I wouldn't quite call this stuff "cheating", but it definitely cuts pretty close at times.

At the end of the day though I get the sense there just may not have been enough to warrant an Iyokus POV in general, as the only relevance he might have had was possibly, as you say, off limits. I think I was just expecting him to have a slightly larger role given his importance in the first series (his role is still pretty damn big TAE, arguably even bigger, but clearly there are details about the metaphysics and the Daimos which RSB is keeping mysterious, or just hasn't figured out).
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 06:48:56 pm by Francis Buck »

Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2018, 07:07:17 pm »
There's a line there between limited information, and straight up dues ex machina. Most of the people here give Bakker the benefit of the doubt, but he does make us work for it.

And you're right, Iyokus - assuming he's the Blind Sorcerer lol - is absolutely central to Kellhus gambit for Golgotterath. In fact, I'd argue the Diamoti are THE MOST important pieces. They are not seen a single time until the final battle, and considering Kellhus allowed an entire school and half the Mandate to be wiped out (plus other casualties) this is extremely significant.

The Few are few and the Ordeal their shield. But the summoners among them might number in the single digits - how important are those that Kellhus is using his Schools to shield?
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2018, 09:57:21 pm »
A couple of ideas on why this might have been:

1. He knows too much.  As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story.  So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat. 

2. Optics.  Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos.  The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet.   So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.

Yeah I think your second point can work for sure, at least to explain his lack of presence during the strategy and councils and so forth (interesting, for example, how Iyokus doesn't even show up for moments like when the Believer-Kings gather or the Last Whelming -- I can't think of any reason off-hand other than what you suggest that would make sense for that).
I didn't notice that but it's a good point. Iyokus is intelligent and likely wouldn't have fallen for Kellhus' prophetic charms the same way others might have, and also he would've probably known more about his impending damnation than every other sorcerer except Kellhus himself.

Wilshire

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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2018, 12:02:42 pm »
A couple of ideas on why this might have been:

1. He knows too much.  As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story.  So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat. 

2. Optics.  Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos.  The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet.   So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.

Yeah I think your second point can work for sure, at least to explain his lack of presence during the strategy and councils and so forth (interesting, for example, how Iyokus doesn't even show up for moments like when the Believer-Kings gather or the Last Whelming -- I can't think of any reason off-hand other than what you suggest that would make sense for that).
I didn't notice that but it's a good point. Iyokus is intelligent and likely wouldn't have fallen for Kellhus' prophetic charms the same way others might have, and also he would've probably known more about his impending damnation than every other sorcerer except Kellhus himself.

And so he was shielded from the readers as well. Bakker does so love his secrets, and POV Iyokus or any other of the Diamoti may have given us too much direct information... Or something. At this point we have Kellhus POVs, but nothing to really corroborate with. Iyokus would have probably been the only one able to confirm or deny.

Also, where even the other schoolmen saw Kellhus as a god, and the Mandate a sovereign, the Diamos set those who could wield it apart, and Kellhus never actually summoned anything of particular interest. Could be that this particular skill was not enhanced by the Dunyain intellect. This makes Iyokus some kind of proof that Kellhus is just a human. Plenty of reasons to keep him far away.
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MSJ

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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2018, 01:12:53 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Also, where even the other schoolmen saw Kellhus as a god, and the Mandate a sovereign, the Diamos set those who could wield it apart, and Kellhus never actually summoned anything of particular interest. Could be that this particular skill was not enhanced by the Dunyain intellect. This makes Iyokus some kind of proof that Kellhus is just a human. Plenty of reasons to keep him far away.

You don't think he summoned the Ciphrang he wears on his belt? I'd say he did. I'd also say that Iyokus didn't want the company of others after having his eyes tore out by Akka. And, that's the reason we don't see him. It could be the reasons you suggest. But, I think the reasons are far simpler. As with most answers we get from Bakker.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 01:14:58 pm by MSJ »
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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2018, 02:13:01 pm »
Well, what about the possibility that Iyokus wasn't even really his "own person" any more?  As in, however Kellhus convinced him to teach him the Daimos left him basically Kellhus' puppet (or something similar).

Also, considering that we know one of the Decapitants had a very real purpose, so it figures that the other one did too.  Just what the purpose is we don't know, but it probably is important, as is that Glossary entry about the head-swapping incident.  I doubt if Kellhus' objective with the Daimos was to "summon" Ciphrang in general.  What does he need Ciphrang for when he can wield far greater power than probably any of them?  Rather, he probably was looking for two very specific Ciphrang, for the exact purpose of being the Decapitants.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2018, 03:06:01 pm »
Interesting thought that the Ciphrang had something specific about them that made them worth    Decapitating.
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2018, 04:15:29 pm »
Interesting thought that the Ciphrang had something specific about them that made them worth    Decapitating.

When the thought struck me, I was rather surprised to have assumed it could have been otherwise though.  As in, would it really have just been two random Ciphrang he just happened to find?  That seems exceptionally unlikely.  The further implications are hard to figure though, since they could be literally anyone.  Hell, one could be Seswatha for all we know.  Also, since we don't know the implication for the other head, for example the one currently on Malowebi's body, it's unclear what distinction is desirable, although it probably would be something that makes them unquestionably loyal (or bound) to Kellhus' will.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2018, 06:35:12 pm »
First, yeah, as you point out 'two random ciphrangs' seems unlikely lol.
although it probably would be something that makes them unquestionably loyal (or bound) to Kellhus' will.
Like how he conquered Ajokli ;)
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« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2018, 08:06:43 pm »
First, yeah, as you point out 'two random ciphrangs' seems unlikely lol.
although it probably would be something that makes them unquestionably loyal (or bound) to Kellhus' will.
Like how he conquered Ajokli ;)

There is also a possibility that one of them is Kellhus himself...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2018, 10:45:55 pm »
First, yeah, as you point out 'two random ciphrangs' seems unlikely lol.
although it probably would be something that makes them unquestionably loyal (or bound) to Kellhus' will.
Like how he conquered Ajokli ;)

There is also a possibility that one of them is Kellhus himself...
Kellhus hanging from his own salted waist... I don't know, we're desperately lacking in new information.