Will the Mutilated step out of the shadows?

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profgrape

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« on: May 23, 2018, 03:42:23 pm »
The Mutilated (RSB's "Cenobites) are pretty badass as far as "big bads" go.  They're far smarter than humans, have a massive army led by the NG and the Gnosis.  They are, in almost every way, more formidable than Shae, Mek, Aurang and Aurax. 

Yet aside from the horde of Skin Spies (one of whom salted Kellhus and will hopefully be getting a sweet end-of-year bonus) and Aurax, their existence is AFAWK a secret. 

The question I'm pondering is whether they'll become more visible in TNG, effectively "announcing their presence".  Because absent them doing so, I'm not sure how humanity would ever discover the truth. 

Thoughts?

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2018, 04:00:14 pm »
That's an interesting question, profgrape.

My guess is that they might remain as the masterminds behind the scenes. After all, Dûnyain are pretty effective at doing so, and they have already done a great job of working things from "behind the curtain" for years. I don't know if there's any need for them to "go public" with the No-God and his legions presumably already doing everything that needs to be done (keep new humans from being born, then work on getting the population down to 144,000).
Though it's always possible they have other plans that we don't know about yet. Hopefully we will get a POV from at least one of them (or at least from Malowebi, who still seems to be around and fully-aware) that sheds some light on that.

Even if they don't announce their existence to the world, I think it's probable that Akka, Esmenet, Mimara and co. will return to Golgotterath by the end of the series and learn of their existence (and role in orchestrating the Second Apocalypse) then.


Yet aside from the horde of Skin Spies (one of whom salted Kellhus and will hopefully be getting a sweet end-of-year bonus)

This bit about the skin-spy did make me chuckle. ;) Jeff the skin-spy (making a reference to Eddie Izzard and his usual character naming conventions here...), employee of the year millennium!
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2018, 04:01:35 pm »
Nice point with the Hellraiser similarity!



I don't think they will be revealed to broader humanity, but we might still see them.
edit: On the other hand though, it would be cool to see them e.g. fighting alongside the No-God using sorcery and/or restored Tekne artifacts to ensure it succeeds.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 04:09:42 pm by TLEILAXU »

Inchoboi

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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2018, 04:18:04 pm »
Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2018, 04:29:02 pm »
edit: On the other hand though, it would be cool to see them e.g. fighting alongside the No-God using sorcery and/or restored Tekne artifacts to ensure it succeeds.

You think they'll reach the conclusion that it will be worth it to actually go out on the field and fight the armies of Men (and whatever surviving Nonmen there might be)?

I really can't see that happening unless humanity does manage to organize a decent enough army and that forces their hand. That won't be happening any time soon, I'd say, unless the survival rate among the Great Ordeal was much higher than we're led to believe...


Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?

They still have Qûya working on their side, assuming some survived the battle at the end of TUC.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

H

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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 05:17:38 pm »
Well, before there was a fair bit of risk involved in exiting the Ark.  Now, there is actually both more and less.  What they didn't know before was the danger that a god could pose, power that sorcery and Tekne is not able to stop in any real way.  So, that might make them a bit more gun-shy than before.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 05:46:55 pm »
Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?
At least some of them can do sorcery, probably taught them by Aurax/Aurang or Consult erratics.

edit: On the other hand though, it would be cool to see them e.g. fighting alongside the No-God using sorcery and/or restored Tekne artifacts to ensure it succeeds.

You think they'll reach the conclusion that it will be worth it to actually go out on the field and fight the armies of Men (and whatever surviving Nonmen there might be)?

I really can't see that happening unless humanity does manage to organize a decent enough army and that forces their hand. That won't be happening any time soon, I'd say, unless the survival rate among the Great Ordeal was much higher than we're led to believe...


Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?

They still have Qûya working on their side, assuming some survived the battle at the end of TUC.
Well, we still have Zeüm and Eanna, but we don't know how much of a threat they may pose to them. I don't think the Mutilated would have a problem risking or giving up their individual lives if it was part of the Shortest Path to the World being shut.

stuslayer

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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2018, 05:54:56 pm »
In another thread I posited the idea of Kellhus returning in the Dreams as a means of control of circumstance beyond death. This could be how the Mandate and Swayali learn of the Mutilated (and of course, Achamian will Dream him first).

profgrape

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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2018, 06:06:12 pm »
Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?

One of the Mutilated uses sorcery.  Which I assumed was the Gnosis (taught by Mek or other Nonmen) although it totally could be Anagogis. 

profgrape

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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2018, 06:36:02 pm »
In another thread I posited the idea of Kellhus returning in the Dreams as a means of control of circumstance beyond death. This could be how the Mandate and Swayali learn of the Mutilated (and of course, Achamian will Dream him first).

Love this.  Akka’s divergent Dreams were never explained. Which could make them something RSB was deliberately holding back.  I could see the revelation happening via Kellhus’ perspective?  Or even Kelmomas’?

MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2018, 07:00:11 pm »
Quote from:  profgrape
]Love this.  Akka’s divergent Dreams were never explained. Which could make them something RSB was deliberately holding back.  I could see the revelation happening via Kellhus’ perspective?  Or even Kelmomas’?

Well, in the Q&A here, when asked about what happened when Kellhus "spoke" to Seswatha, Bakker said that was off limits. So, id assume he has a plan for it.

ETA: Profgrape, why would you think we would experience these dreams through Kelmommas? There is no more Kelmommas, imho. He is the No-God now. He is apart from the Outside. Matter of fact, he is the Tekne in its greatest form. I don't see how that would even be a possibility. Just wondering what makes you think that a possibility.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 08:09:15 pm by MSJ »
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profgrape

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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2018, 08:23:54 pm »
Quote from:  profgrape
]Love this.  Akka’s divergent Dreams were never explained. Which could make them something RSB was deliberately holding back.  I could see the revelation happening via Kellhus’ perspective?  Or even Kelmomas’?

Well, in the Q&A here, when asked about what happened when Kellhus "spoke" to Seswatha, Bakker said that was off limits. So, id assume he has a plan for it.

ETA: Profgrape, why would you think we would experience these dreams through Kelmommas? There is no more Kelmommas, imho. He is the No-God now. He is apart from the Outside. Matter of fact, he is the Tekne in its greatest form. I don't see how that would even be a possibility. Just wondering what makes you think that a possibility.

That's a good point, MSJ. 

I was thinking about the parallel between Subjects Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas.  NC was the device to reveal the IF and the Object, perhaps Kelmomas could do the same for others?


ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2018, 08:36:13 pm »
Well, we still have Zeüm and Eanna, but we don't know how much of a threat they may pose to them. I don't think the Mutilated would have a problem risking or giving up their individual lives if it was part of the Shortest Path to the World being shut.

I agree, I just don't think that the Shortest Path requires that to happen during the near future.


One of the Mutilated uses sorcery.  Which I assumed was the Gnosis (taught by Mek or other Nonmen) although it totally could be Anagogis. 

Huh, I had forgotten about that. Probably taught by Mek or one of the other Qûya, yes. Anyway, their sorcerous skill was presumably no match for Kellhus' Metagnosis and Daimos (it could be a match for Akka and/or any other sorcerer/witch who fights them in the future, though...).


In another thread I posited the idea of Kellhus returning in the Dreams as a means of control of circumstance beyond death. This could be how the Mandate and Swayali learn of the Mutilated (and of course, Achamian will Dream him first).

Your Dream theory is seeming more and more likely as discussion goes on, stuslayer. Presumably Akka would then learn not only of the Mutilated, but also of Kelmomas' fate (as everyone else who survived likely believes it was Kellhus in the Carapace).


I was thinking about the parallel between Subjects Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas.  NC was the device to reveal the IF and the Object, perhaps Kelmomas could do the same for others?

I don't think Akka will have Dreams from Kelmomas' POV if stuslayer's theory turns out to be true. Sure, Akka had Dreams from Nau-Cayûti's perspective from before he was placed in the Carapace, but we had Kelmomas' POV for 4 books, almost until the point he himself was inserted. It doesn't seem to me to be much point to an indirect Kelmomas POV.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2018, 09:57:58 pm »
My take on it is that the general state of ignorance and uncertainty is the point. People don't know what's going on, and they really have no way to, absent some supernatural means, which are notably nonexistent in the real world. Bakker uses them to drive the plot, sure, but "driving" doesn't equal "solving".

So no, I wouldn't welcome the characters catching wind of the Dunsult through dreams or the like. Now, encountering them in battle and getting a hell of a surprise, that's something I can easily see. Or someone infiltrating the Ark Seswatha-style only to find it in the hands of the Dunyain.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2018, 11:26:25 pm »
Another indirect thing we could see is maybe some of their Erratic lieutenants wielding e.g. weapons of light or new Wracu etc. which might hint that there's a new CEO at Golgotterath.