Kellhus and the Dreams - what could it lead to?

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stuslayer

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« on: May 24, 2018, 08:01:35 pm »
Hi All

So, A few people have commented on the idea of Kellhus appearing in the Dreams, perhaps starting with Akka and then the Mandate and Swayali, providing continuity of his leadership and control after Resumption. I provided a few of my thoughts on this, and seeing the positive comments on the idea I thought it would be good to discuss what people think, if this theory is feasible, what it might mean for TNG and the hopes/fates of the protagonists that we think have survived Golgotterath.

What do you think might happen if Kellhus appears in the Dreams? Will he supplant Seswatha, or something else? What would he command? Who will he appear to, and why? Where do you think the story will go if this idea is right? I'd be fascinated to know what people think.

MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2018, 08:15:41 pm »
Quote from:  stuslayer
What do you think might happen if Kellhus appears in the Dreams? Will he supplant Seswatha, or something else? What would he command? Who will he appear to, and why? Where do you think the story will go if this idea is right? I'd be fascinated to know what people think.

Its just a great idea, again, I'm astonished no one ever brought it up. I think Kellhus will supplant Seswatha (as his job is done, the No-God is walking) and aid in the attempt to stop the No-God. I am of the opinion, that only Akka will recieve these dreams and will converse with Kellhus. Akka needs to know of the Mutilated and that Kelmommas is the No-God.

If true, he has access to the Outside, presumably. He can see all of time and mayne aid in what is needed to kill the No-God. Maybe, I'm with H, and think Mimara is the ultimate savior.
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profgrape

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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2018, 11:13:48 pm »
I could see Kellhus having manipulated the Dreams such that was positioned to lead the final resistance in case Kellhus failed at Golgotterath.  And similarly, I could see the Dreams shifting to Kellhus.  Which would be all kinds of amazing as it could reveal tidbits of other things Kellhus had done as a backup plan.

Now that I thinking about it a bit, it would be amazing to start TNG with a Dream.  Akka is Kellhus and sowing oats with Esme.  Then he wakes up to see both Esme and Mimara lying on the ground in Agongorea. 

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2018, 11:27:00 pm »
As I have said in previous threads, I think this theory of yours has potential. :)

I agree that it's quite likely that Kellhus will replace Seswatha in future Dreams, since as MSJ said, what Seswatha tried to prevent already happened, his role could be considered complete (also, Akka is now the Seswatha figure of the story).

I think it would be interesting if Akka's first Kellhus Dream took place chronologically shortly after Akka renounced him, his School and Esmenet back in the spring of 4112. Akka could even "catch up" with significant events in Kellhus' life from the past 20 years over the course of the series.

Now, will anyone else have the Kellhus Dreams? Serwa would be an obvious choice here...it would be interesting to have her react to possibly learning quite a few things she didn't know about the father she idolized - especially after his Thousandfold Thought failed at the end of TUC. As for anyone else, I'd love it if one or more of the witches had survived and become secondary characters who also have the New Dreams. Having at least one other Mandati, such as Saccarees (if he survived, I think it's likely he could have) react to the Dreams would also be nice (Nautzera could even return in this capacity...).
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stuslayer

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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2018, 12:35:38 pm »
Seswatha's Dreams were always very narrative, and Akka would search for meaning and direction within them, for example finding out about the map to Ishual hidden at Sauglish. Do you think this would be the way Kellhus' Dreams would manifest? Or is it more likely that Kellhus would be more immediate, perhaps like Jagang in the Imperial Order from Terry Badnasty's Wizard's First Rule series? He would become the Goad to stopping the No God, in opposition to the Goad of the IF...

Francis Buck

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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2018, 10:11:15 pm »
Seswatha's Dreams were always very narrative, and Akka would search for meaning and direction within them, for example finding out about the map to Ishual hidden at Sauglish. Do you think this would be the way Kellhus' Dreams would manifest? Or is it more likely that Kellhus would be more immediate, perhaps like Jagang in the Imperial Order from Terry Badnasty's Wizard's First Rule series? He would become the Goad to stopping the No God, in opposition to the Goad of the IF...

I would say that the Mandate's Dreams were already the Goad in opposition to the Inverse Fire. At the very least I certainly think the symbolism with this was intentional on RSB's part.

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 05:12:20 pm »
Shit maybe I'll go grab some of the redacted Seswatha passages, but if Kellhus appears in dreams it certainly would imply to me that he exists still. Like a disease he infected the world, and like a virus maybe he's been able to spread his consciousness from dream to dream, Akka being patient zero way back in the beginning.

Kellhus resurfacing and supplanting the consciousness of waking mandati seems not out of the question.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 05:18:54 pm »
Seswatha's Dreams were always very narrative, and Akka would search for meaning and direction within them, for example finding out about the map to Ishual hidden at Sauglish. Do you think this would be the way Kellhus' Dreams would manifest? Or is it more likely that Kellhus would be more immediate, perhaps like Jagang in the Imperial Order from Terry Badnasty's Wizard's First Rule series? He would become the Goad to stopping the No God, in opposition to the Goad of the IF...

I'd think that Dream Kellhus would be more direct than Seswatha, but I could also see him being cryptic/not disclosing certain pieces of information/etc., essentially continuing his Dűnyain manipulation from beyond the grave.


I would say that the Mandate's Dreams were already the Goad in opposition to the Inverse Fire. At the very least I certainly think the symbolism with this was intentional on RSB's part.

I had never thought about the Dreams in opposition to the Inverse Fire like that, but it does make sense.


Shit maybe I'll go grab some of the redacted Seswatha passages, but if Kellhus appears in dreams it certainly would imply to me that he exists still. Like a disease he infected the world, and like a virus maybe he's been able to spread his consciousness from dream to dream, Akka being patient zero way back in the beginning.

Kellhus resurfacing and supplanting the consciousness of waking mandati seems not out of the question.

That makes Dream Kellhus sound very creepy and insidious...which would be right in character. Kind of reminds me of the Thing, but involving a mental rather than physical assimilation. ;)
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasűrimbor Kayűtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2018, 07:33:23 pm »
Shit maybe I'll go grab some of the redacted Seswatha passages, but if Kellhus appears in dreams it certainly would imply to me that he exists still. Like a disease he infected the world, and like a virus maybe he's been able to spread his consciousness from dream to dream, Akka being patient zero way back in the beginning.

Kellhus resurfacing and supplanting the consciousness of waking mandati seems not out of the question.

That makes Dream Kellhus sound very creepy and insidious...which would be right in character. Kind of reminds me of the Thing, but involving a mental rather than physical assimilation. ;)
Like how people were subsumed by the sranc meat, except we're talking about Kellhus here so obviously way more aggressive. Perhaps whenever a sorcerer goes to sleep Kellhus takes over...

Though Kellhus main thing is to take over the strongest. Lets see, who is the strongest sorcerers around. Basically just Akka, and perhaps Serwe
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 07:36:10 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2018, 07:43:10 pm »
Shit maybe I'll go grab some of the redacted Seswatha passages, but if Kellhus appears in dreams it certainly would imply to me that he exists still. Like a disease he infected the world, and like a virus maybe he's been able to spread his consciousness from dream to dream, Akka being patient zero way back in the beginning.

Kellhus resurfacing and supplanting the consciousness of waking mandati seems not out of the question.

This could explain why Akka taught him sorcery - Akka was so worried he was inadvertently fulfilling the prophesy, yet he did it anyways - what comes after determines what came before ...
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2018, 06:57:58 pm »
Like how people were subsumed by the sranc meat, except we're talking about Kellhus here so obviously way more aggressive. Perhaps whenever a sorcerer goes to sleep Kellhus takes over...

Though Kellhus main thing is to take over the strongest. Lets see, who is the strongest sorcerers around. Basically just Akka, and perhaps Serwe

Serwa, Akka and Saccarees, I suppose, though Dream Kellhus wouldn't need much persuasion to influence the actions of his very devoted daughter (unless Serwa has been changed by what she went through in TUC?). Saccarees wouldn't be much trouble either, he seemed to be quite loyal to his Lord-and-Prophet. So Akka would (predictably) be the real target in this situation.


This could explain why Akka taught him sorcery - Akka was so worried he was inadvertently fulfilling the prophesy, yet he did it anyways - what comes after determines what came before ...

Poor Akka, right when he thought his life couldn't possibly get any worse...
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasűrimbor Kayűtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2018, 07:03:48 pm »
Poor Akka, right when he thought his life couldn't possibly get any worse...

If there's one thing Earwa has taught us, its that it can always get worse.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2018, 07:18:32 pm »
Poor Akka, right when he thought his life couldn't possibly get any worse...

If there's one thing Earwa has taught us, its that it can always get worse.

True, but I'd bet that Akka didn't consider that it could get much worse than the Second Apocalypse beginning and the Great Ordeal being annihilated... ;)
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasűrimbor Kayűtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)