Quotes

  • 192 Replies
  • 24047 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2674
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2018, 10:00:07 pm »
So, I was watching/listening to the Peterson/Harris talks on YouTube the other day.  And, much like Peterson, I tend to agree with most of what Harris says, yet, something still doesn't sit right.  Stumbled across this in the Jung book I am reading:

Quote
As a matter of fact, it only needs a neurosis to conjure up a force that cannot be dealt with by rational means. Our cancer case [where a patient psychosomatically thinks they have cancer and actually show some symptoms] shows clearly how impotent man’s reason and intellect are against the most palpable nonsense. I always advise my patients to take such obvious but invincible nonsense as the manifestation of a power and a meaning they have not yet understood. Experience has taught me that it is much more effective to take these things seriously and then look for a suitable explanation. But an explanation is suitable only when it produces a hypothesis equal to the morbid effect. Our patient is confronted with a power of will and suggestion more than equal to anything his consciousness can put against it. In this precarious situation it would be bad strategy to convince him that in some incomprehensible way he is at the back of his own symptom, secretly inventing and supporting it. Such a suggestion would instantly paralyse his fighting spirit, and he would get demoralized. It is far better for him to understand that his complex is an autonomous power directed against his conscious personality. Moreover, such an explanation fits the actual facts much better than a reduction to personal motives. An apparently personal motivation does exist, but it is not made by his will, it just happens to him.

C. G. Jung - Psychology and Religion

This is what I think Harris doesn't really want to acknowledge.  That we can assume humans are rational actors.  But the fact is, often, perhaps most often, they are not.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Francis Buck

  • *
  • Kcub Sicnarf
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • The Lordlady
  • Posts: 250
    • View Profile
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2018, 11:25:21 am »
I have largely come around to just fully disliking Harris without any hesitations, and I definitely think that one of the big elements of that (even though I could not have articulated before now, so thank you H.) is this position on "humans as rational actors". It's not even really a debate. We are totally, completely NOT rational actors at all. Even if you JUST zero in on humanity's pervasive, nigh inescapable "optimism delusion", it becomes clear how hilariously non-rational we are in just simple day-to-life, even among people are who are proportionately aware of this delusion.

And this is without even really dipping your toes into the maelstrom of cognitive biases and waaaaaay headier content you see routinely on Three Pound Brain, for examples. Even philosophers/scientists/thinkers who are relatively of clued-in to the Bakker-esque material are mostly incapable of making that last big "leap" and wrapping their heads around the full scope of human delusion, especially when it comes to grappling with the "language" involved with investigation of non-intentional-anything.

TBF, I do RSB trends toward a more "radical" outlook/perception of other somewhat like-minded "thinkers" (dunno what else to call these dudes anymore) and can be overly dismissive of folks who are basically treading the same waters he is, particularly when it comes to "intentionalist talk" (though again RSB is not off-point here exactly, he just laser-focuses in on it with seemingly anyone whose actually throwing their hat into the ring).

Then again I may just have no fucking clue what RSB is talking about and I'm totally wrong. I flip-flop everytime I dive into that blog.

sorta TL;DR
I haven't really stayed up on Harris since my early-to-mid twenties and am still catching up on Peterson, but my opinion ATM is that Harris is a well-spoken, well-educated individual with some incredibly shallow views on a number of alarming topics and, ultimately, is just kind of an asshat. Peterson is similar, but IMO suffers most from an inability to articulate himself on a handful of interrelated and relevant topics/issues which then COULD be used to cumulatively build up to a coherent intellectual vision. These factors, for each individual, lend themselves to popularity and to the sense H. describes of "tending to agree with most of what Harris/Peterson says, yet still something doesn't sit right." This is because (most, certainly not all) of their views are fairly straightforward and non-crazy, and in piece-meal do make sense, but there's little cohesion (especially with Peterson) that make all these little pieces build up into some digestible, coherent, visionary concept.

TBF, I have less against Peterson than Harris. Harris's warmongering and views on religion, especially Islam, are almost completely asinine IMO when you lay it all out. I just lost all respect for so-called progressives that still thinks violence is a solution to anything short of like, an alien invasion or some crazy shit. War is fruitless, always has been, always will be. It's still an issue obviously and an enormous part of human existence, but it is never, ever the "right way" IMO. You can cut some slack for our ancestors who had no realistic recourse (although, they did, and used them more we are often led to believe), but in the 21st century for first world countries, there are no excuses).

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2674
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2018, 12:08:52 pm »
Well, I don't pretend that my "like" of Peterson is not bias.  That being said, it isn't as if I don't know that he can and will be wrong about things.  Like anyone else, he certainly is.  That being said, Harris is essentially a "rationalism" fundamentalist, which simply isn't going to sit well with me.  Peterson does get wishy-washy in places, most in places where he is outside his element.  Simply, that is a product of the "big picture" being vastly complicated.  I doubt he could or would be able to focus on the "whole" thing, even if he had some theory on it...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5770
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2018, 12:56:51 pm »
warmongering ... progressives that still thinks violence is a solution ... part of human existence, but it is never, ever the "right way" IMO.
A big part of the issue is how to address a group unwilling to listen to any argument and simply relies on the Might Makes Right mentality.

Even in a relationship between just two humans, if one of them wants to take something from the other and is bigger, stronger, and/or willing to commit acts of violence for it, no amount of argument or pandering will help.

As Cnaiur put it so wonderfully:  To indulge it is to breed it. To punish it is to feed it. Madness knows no bridle but the knife.

When you're talking about entire countries and complex international relationships, its even harder. Until the US disbands its entire global military force, I think we're probably the last country that can talk about "war isn't the right answer"
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 12:59:50 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2674
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2018, 04:42:09 pm »
When you're talking about entire countries and complex international relationships, its even harder. Until the US disbands its entire global military force, I think we're probably the last country that can talk about "war isn't the right answer"

Well, one, war isn't actually irrational.  At least, not iherrently.  It can be perfectly rational to go to war.

Quote
Protestantism was, and still is, a great risk and at the same time a great opportunity. If it goes on disintegrating as a church, it must have the effect of stripping man of all his spiritual safeguards and means of defence against immediate experience of the forces waiting for liberation in the unconscious. Look at all the incredible savagery going on in our so-called civilized world: it all comes from human beings and the spiritual condition they are in! Look at the devilish engines of destruction! They are invented by completely innocuous gentlemen, reasonable, respectable citizens who are everything we could wish. And when the whole thing blows up and an indescribable hell of destruction is let loose, nobody seems to be responsible. It simply happens, and yet it is all man-made. But since everybody is blindly convinced that he is nothing more than his own extremely unassuming and insignificant conscious self, which performs its duties decently and earns a moderate living, nobody is aware that this whole rationalistically organized conglomeration we call a state or a nation is driven on by a seemingly impersonal, invisible but terrifying power which nobody and nothing can check. This ghastly power is mostly explained as fear of the neighbouring nation, which is supposed to be possessed by a malevolent fiend. Since nobody is capable of recognizing just where and how much he himself is possessed and unconscious, he simply projects his own condition upon his neighbour, and thus it becomes a sacred duty to have the biggest guns and the most poisonous gas. The worst of it is that he is quite right. All one’s neighbours are in the grip of some uncontrolled and uncontrollable fear, just like oneself. In lunatic asylums it is a well-known fact that patients are far more dangerous when suffering from fear than when moved by rage or hatred.

C. G. Jung - Psychology and Religion

You can safely skip the part about Protestanism and the rest is still perfectly applicable to the here-and-now and directly to your above point.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Blueberry Psūkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2018, 02:12:11 am »
... nigh inescapable "optimism delusion", it becomes clear how hilariously non-rational we are in just simple day-to-life

Go easy on our disallusionment - the only thing we have to fend off the existential terror that one day we're gonna die. "Primitive" man sees another die - they're "gone" ... where did they go? Logic can't resolve, not enough information, limited view ... disallusionment is necessary to continue conscious life - otherwise we're faced with ( perhaps factual ) jumping off a cliff is no different from eating breakfast.

Harris's warmongering and views on religion, especially Islam

While I do not see it the same way Harris does, terrorism does spread alarm and disgust by design. While I think he's wrong, I don't beat up those who want to fight back too much, it's an understandable response. Indiscriminate violence ( meh, maybe all violence - but the more arbitrary/indiscriminate, the more scary ) is jarring. Terrorism has jarred Harris, he is not immune.

In the spirit of RSB - we're all limited, so while it's cool to critique, be careful to not be overly critical for who appear to be fair actors risking exposure in the public discourse - it's not easy to bare one's soul to the world. Peterson and Harris appear to be fair actors, which is to say they're not aiming for political effects ( they could be operatives, just they don't appear to be to me ). At least they're trying, so yes, they don't get it all - but none of us do and collectively, continuing to talk and vet, we may get somewhere. So I enjoy listening to people like Petersen and Harris, even though they ( like myself ) miss so many marks. Not easy wrapping your head around everything as the more cogent you "stuff" the world into a box, the more it seeps out away from you - there's simply too much for a single brain to contain. Genius continues to pop up all over the world, in all corners, as the global level of violence has greatly decreased compared to the rest of human history. If we can continue, reducing violence, improving/spreading stable environments - the human gang intellect may make some headway into unknown. The last Jung quote details a great hurdle which currently seems insurmountable - imagine if we could move past it, what we would be capable of.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 02:15:19 am by TaoHorror »
May your death be soon, slow and painful

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2018, 03:52:06 am »
Yeah i'm going to have to start reading some Jung, is there a natural starting place?

Every time i try and understand these super smart folk I feel like i'm trying to pour 5lb of shite into a 2lb bag.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2674
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2018, 12:52:06 pm »
Yeah i'm going to have to start reading some Jung, is there a natural starting place?

Every time i try and understand these super smart folk I feel like i'm trying to pour 5lb of shite into a 2lb bag.

Hmm, that's a good question.  Being the ignorant and headstrong teenager I was when I first picked up some of Jung's collected works, I dove straight in to the most dense, most difficult stuff.  And naturally, was completely dumbfounded.  For years.  I still am on a good bit of it.

However, I recently looked over Peterson's "recommended reading" and he lists Jung's "Two Essays on Analytical Psychology" as a good starting point.  I can't recall if I have read that completely, or only in part, but looking at it now, I think Peterson is likely correct.  It even begins with a reasonable account of the historical development of psychology, that is, psychoanalysis, that is likely helpful to get into the subject.

Honestly, despite owning most of the books as physical copies, this is a case where the eBook versions are honestly superior.  Because even after years and years of reading Jung, I still need google to guide me on several fronts.  Also, always keep in mind that while Jung was most probably in the 1% of the 1% of smartest people ever, time bears out places where he can simply be wrong.  We are the beneficiaries of ~100 years of new insight, grown upon his and others.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2018, 09:43:05 pm »
Cheers H.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2674
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2018, 07:53:07 pm »
Quote
Today humanity, as never before, is split into two apparently irreconcilable halves. The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate. That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner opposite, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposing halves.

C.G. Jung -Aion, Researches Into the Phenomenology of The Self

Written in 1950, this is still just as relevant, if not more so, today...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Blueberry Psūkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2018, 01:44:41 am »
Bertrand Russell:

"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."

"Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim."

"One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important."
May your death be soon, slow and painful

Francis Buck

  • *
  • Kcub Sicnarf
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • The Lordlady
  • Posts: 250
    • View Profile
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2018, 03:56:15 am »
Quote
If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid with regard to external things. Don't wish to be thought to know anything; and even if you appear to be somebody important to others, distrust yourself. For, it is difficult to both keep your faculty of choice in a state conformable to nature, and at the same time acquire external things. But while you are careful about the one, you must of necessity neglect the other.
-The Enchiridion, 13

Quote
“For who is it that made the heavens crimson and the sun golden, who has given light to the moon and the stars with it, who has dried the earth in the midst of the many waters, who set you yourself among the things and who has sought me out in the perplexity of my thoughts?”
- The Apocalypse of Abraham



H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2674
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2018, 02:40:19 pm »
Quote
If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid with regard to external things. Don't wish to be thought to know anything; and even if you appear to be somebody important to others, distrust yourself. For, it is difficult to both keep your faculty of choice in a state conformable to nature, and at the same time acquire external things. But while you are careful about the one, you must of necessity neglect the other.
-The Enchiridion, 13

Reminds me of an article I read a while back about how people abandon hobbies for not being "excellent" at them.

Quote
“For who is it that made the heavens crimson and the sun golden, who has given light to the moon and the stars with it, who has dried the earth in the midst of the many waters, who set you yourself among the things and who has sought me out in the perplexity of my thoughts?”
- The Apocalypse of Abraham

Reminds me of the line of thinking about consciousness, that its purpose is the ability to supply a specifically limited perception of God to God.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Blueberry Psūkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2018, 01:29:47 am »
I know, common, but in light of Q today and I feel spot on ...

Quote
Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
“Self-Reliance” by Ralph Waldo Emerson

Though I prefer it's slightly more modern usage, "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

May your death be soon, slow and painful

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2674
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2018, 02:29:43 pm »
I know, common, but in light of Q today and I feel spot on ...

Quote
Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
“Self-Reliance” by Ralph Waldo Emerson

Though I prefer it's slightly more modern usage, "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

It's a very interesting little tidbit.  In t he sense that it seems like something small, but is actually likely a symptom of a very "big" issue.  That is, just who are we?  In the sense of, who am I?  What am I?

If we consider the narrative character of life, we likely find at least part of why we want to try to maintain "consistency."
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira