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sciborg2

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« Reply #210 on: January 14, 2020, 01:16:35 am »
"Eventually, I believe, current attempts to understand the mind by analogy with man-made computers that can perform superbly some of the same external tasks as conscious beings will be recognized as a gigantic waste of time."
 -Thomas Nagel
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #211 on: January 14, 2020, 02:46:38 pm »
"Eventually, I believe, current attempts to understand the mind by analogy with man-made computers that can perform superbly some of the same external tasks as conscious beings will be recognized as a gigantic waste of time."
 -Thomas Nagel

Articulated much better than I ever could, but I've felt this way for some time. Though trying may not be a waste of time, we may learn a lot with robotics that could be a boon for humanity. But the idea we can make a computer ( or anything ) conscious beyond the good old fashion way will likely never happen.

I've had this idea for a somewhat scifi story/movie/something ( I'm a shit writer, so it'll forever rot in my head ) whereas we did fail to generate artificial intelligence from hard machines, but we made some ground with soft machinery and succeeded in creating a brain from scratch as a brain ( meaning wholly organic with exact bio materials as a human brain ) and a consciousness shows up ( emerges? ). From there we figure out how to disable the mechanism that allows us to forget and then build another brain and we ask the "person" who shows up where they came from. A lot of details have to be worked out, like is it an infantile consciousness that arrives and we have to wait for it to grow up, learn language, does disabling forgetfulness drive it insane, etc. But I think it could be suspenseful story building up to "summoning" a consciousness that will remember where it came from. So if my story is "true", what's showing up would be a soul.
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H

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« Reply #212 on: January 14, 2020, 03:26:37 pm »
A lot of details have to be worked out, like is it an infantile consciousness that arrives and we have to wait for it to grow up, learn language, does disabling forgetfulness drive it insane, etc. But I think it could be suspenseful story building up to "summoning" a consciousness that will remember where it came from. So if my story is "true", what's showing up would be a soul.

Very Hegelian, I like it.  I love Hegel's line from The Phenomenology, "Wir sehen hiermit wieder die Sprache als das Dasein des Geistes." (So, again, we see language as the Dasein [being-there] of Spirit.)

Quote
Yet one cannot maintain that the sensible is injected by me into things like some sort of perpetual and arbitrary hallucination. For there is indeed a constant link between real things and their sensations: if there were no thing capable of giving rise to the sensation of redness, there would be no perception of a red thing; if there were no real fire, there would be no
sensation of burning. But it makes no sense to say that the redness or the heat can exist as qualities just as well without me as with me: without the perception of redness, there is no red thing; without the sensation of heat, there is no heat. Whether it be affective or perceptual, the sensible only exists as a relation: a relation between the world and the living creature I am. In actuality, the sensible is neither simply ‘in me’ in the manner of a dream, nor simply ‘in the thing’ in the manner of an intrinsic property: it is the very relation between the thing and I. These sensible qualities, which are not in the things themselves but in my subjective relation to the latter – these qualities correspond to what were traditionally called secondary qualities.

-Quentin Meillassoux, After Finitude

For Sci (just being a QM quote) and Wilshire (a quote about things in themselves).  Mostly though, a quote for me, that someone actually intelligent spells out my vague notion about a relationality.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

H

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« Reply #213 on: January 15, 2020, 12:51:01 pm »
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Thus, one could say that up until Kant, one of the principal problems of philosophy was to think substance, while ever since Kant, it has consisted in trying to think the correlation. Prior to the advent of transcendentalism, one of the questions that divided rival philosophers most decisively was ‘Who grasps the true nature of substance? He who thinks the Idea, the individual, the atom, God? Which God?’ But ever since Kant, to discover what divides rival philosophers is no longer to ask who has grasped the true nature of substantiality, but rather to ask who has grasped the more originary correlation: is it the thinker of the subject-object correlation, the noetico-noematic correlation, or the language-referent correlation? The question is no longer ‘which is the proper substrate?’ but ‘which is the proper correlate?’
-Quentin Meillassoux, After Finitude
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #214 on: January 17, 2020, 09:00:08 pm »
"You're saying that evil is a means to an end, never an end in itself. But what if evil was more than just a label for antisocial behavior? What if evil was a real force working in the world, capable of drawing people to its service?"
-Matt Ruff, Bad Monkeys

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"We stood facing each other like two libertines...I think it was then that I told him truly why I was not on his side -

Because the Good was more of an Adventure."
-Calasso, Ruins of Kasch
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #215 on: January 18, 2020, 08:59:42 am »
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

sciborg2

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« Reply #216 on: January 20, 2020, 01:09:45 am »
"Being clever's a fine thing, but sometimes a boy just needs to get out of the house and talk to some girls...GAMBLE A STAMP, I CAN SHOW YOU HOW TO BE A REAL MAN!"
 -Grant Morrison, Flex Mentallo
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