[TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE

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Swayal Serpent

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« on: June 01, 2018, 07:21:35 am »
Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I haven't seen much about it. After finishing a reread of TUC I remembered that Esmi is not damned according to TJE. Why in the world would she not be damned? She's done some horrible things, and Yatwer wanted her dead too. The only reasons I can think of would be that either Mimara's forgiveness saved her, or her hatred of Kellhus changed Yatwers mind. Both seem like weak theories, but I can't see any other reason she wouldn't be damned

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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2018, 11:04:54 am »
Yatwer didn't want her dead. IIRC she was prepared to throw a chorae at Kellhus during the end of TGO.

Swayal Serpent

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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2018, 12:47:38 pm »
Yatwer didn't want her dead. IIRC she was prepared to throw a chorae at Kellhus during the end of TGO.
I'll have to go back and check to make sure, but there were multiple times that the WLW "saw himself" killing Esmenet. Im on the road so I don't have any physical copies with me, but I'm positive that Issiral was going to kill Esmenet too. As for the chorae, that whole seen was a bit confusing. I thought the walls of the palace had chorae built inside of them, and the earthquake causes one to nearly hit Kellhus

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2018, 01:14:26 pm »
Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I haven't seen much about it. After finishing a reread of TUC I remembered that Esmi is not damned according to TJE. Why in the world would she not be damned? She's done some horrible things, and Yatwer wanted her dead too. The only reasons I can think of would be that either Mimara's forgiveness saved her, or her hatred of Kellhus changed Yatwers mind. Both seem like weak theories, but I can't see any other reason she wouldn't be damned

First of all, I'm just going to point out that (as far as we know for now) the Judging Eye, despite being associated with pregnant women, is not linked to Yatwer. The Judging Eye is supposedly the point of view of the God (not one of the Gods).
Now, why is Esmenet saved? That is a great question, and one we don't know the answer to. Like you said, she is no innocent - the massacre of innocents in Carythusal when Mimara was found particularly stands out. There are many theories why Esmenet is saved (or seems to be from the JE's perspective, in the very least), but yes, nothing has been denied or confirmed here. I'll let everyone who has good explanations weight in, I can't really come up with a decent theory of my own here.


Yatwer didn't want her dead. IIRC she was prepared to throw a chorae at Kellhus during the end of TGO.

TLEILAXU is right here, Yatwer's target was Kellhus. Esmenet (or any of their children for that matter) were just collateral damage. Esmenet made a deal with Yatwer's own White-Luck Warrior to kill her husband (who only survived because Kelmomas' sudden appearance interfered with the WLW, with Kelmomas being invisible to the Gods and all).


I'll have to go back and check to make sure, but there were multiple times that the WLW "saw himself" killing Esmenet. Im on the road so I don't have any physical copies with me, but I'm positive that Issiral was going to kill Esmenet too. As for the chorae, that whole seen was a bit confusing. I thought the walls of the palace had chorae built inside of them, and the earthquake causes one to nearly hit Kellhus

I think it's more along the lines that the WLW saw Esmenet dead, not that he killed/would kill her himself. I always assumed he saw her dying in the collapse of the Andiamine Heights during the earthquake (you know, like Thelli - the WLW didn't kill her either, not directly at least). Kelmomas' interference caused both Kellhus and Esmenet to survive that moment.
As for the Chorae, I don't remember the details...might need to reread that part.
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H

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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2018, 02:16:57 pm »
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Swayal Serpent

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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2018, 03:03:14 pm »

Yatwer didn't want her dead. IIRC she was prepared to throw a chorae at Kellhus during the end of TGO.

TLEILAXU is right here, Yatwer's target was Kellhus. Esmenet (or any of their children for that matter) were just collateral damage. Esmenet made a deal with Yatwer's own White-Luck Warrior to kill her husband (who only survived because Kelmomas' sudden appearance interfered with the WLW, with Kelmomas being invisible to the Gods and all).


I'll have to go back and check to make sure, but there were multiple times that the WLW "saw himself" killing Esmenet. Im on the road so I don't have any physical copies with me, but I'm positive that Issiral was going to kill Esmenet too. As for the chorae, that whole seen was a bit confusing. I thought the walls of the palace had chorae built inside of them, and the earthquake causes one to nearly hit Kellhus

I think it's more along the lines that the WLW saw Esmenet dead, not that he killed/would kill her himself. I always assumed he saw her dying in the collapse of the Andiamine Heights during the earthquake (you know, like Thelli - the WLW didn't kill her either, not directly at least). Kelmomas' interference caused both Kellhus and Esmenet to survive that moment.

Oh I see what your saying. It's very difficult to tell what's going on in Issiral's head. And I suppose Yatwer might not have anything to do with TJE in the first place

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MSJ

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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2018, 07:07:17 pm »
Quote from:  H
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2018, 11:54:10 am »
To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.

Yeah, Koringhus tells us a lot of important information about the Cubit, but it's hard to make out some of it, because he is literally insane at that point.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2018, 06:48:31 pm »
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

I remember that, I just didn't go into more detail because a) it hasn't been fully confirmed (not that many things get a clear-cut explanation in this series, but you get what I mean) and b) I also want to "save" it for a more detailed discussion/analysis later on (it will be a while before the current forum reread reaches TGO, though).

Agree with you on Yatwer, though I wouldn't completely exclude a connection between her and the Judging Eye, because of its link to pregnant women and stillbirths. We have no evidence of this (and I don't think we will, with Yatwer effectively out of the picture during the Second Apocalypse), but it's not that implausible to me.


Oh I see what your saying. It's very difficult to tell what's going on in Issiral's head. And I suppose Yatwer might not have anything to do with TJE in the first place

Issiral's POV can be quite confusing. I had to reread specific passages to get a better picture of what happened at the end of TGO, and I'm still missing some details there.

Like I said in my reply to H above, while we have no reason to think Yatwer has a connection to the Judging Eye, it doesn't mean that there isn't one. Yatwer just has no impact on whether Mimara would see Esmenet (or anyone else) as saved.


To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.

Yeah, Koringhus tells us a lot of important information about the Cubit, but it's hard to make out some of it, because he is literally insane at that point.

A detailed reread of the chapters Koringhus appears in is needed, at least in my case. Not sure if I'm going to wait for the forum reread to get there (the TGO reread will take place approximately between January and May 2020 by my calculations)...but then again, it's likely that we won't yet have a new book to discuss by the time it ends, so why not?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasűrimbor Kayűtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Swayal Serpent

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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2018, 06:57:45 pm »
Quote from:  H
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE

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MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2018, 07:12:13 pm »
Quote from:  SwayaliSerpent
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE?

Yep, we went over that quite thoroughly in our last reread.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2018, 09:53:33 pm »
Quote from:  H
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE

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I'm inclined to believe she would see what Kellhus told Proyas. Damnation.

MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2018, 10:00:04 pm »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
I'm inclined to believe she would see what Kellhus told Proyas. Damnation.

Think so?

We can point to many cases where Kellhus is wrong...all throughout the series. Hell, @Locke has a great thread around here pointing out all such instances. I tend to believe that the "common" people got it right and revere her as a holy figure...
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Swayal Serpent

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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2018, 10:04:33 pm »
Quote from:  H
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE

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I'm inclined to believe she would see what Kellhus told Proyas. Damnation.
Ah yes, I forgot about that. Although it is possible that Kellhus only said that to condition Proyas. He needed to turn Proyas into an unbeliever, and telling him Serwe is damned would be a good way to cement Proyas' disbelief

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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2018, 10:09:44 pm »
(and I don't think we will, with Yatwer effectively out of the picture during the Second Apocalypse)
I would like to know why many people think that the Gods are out of the picture while the No-God is active. They are not at all out of anything, they just can't act against the No-God effectively (they can still wreak havoc for other reasons, for example). The faculties of the Gods are impaired by the System, but they are not completely nullified until the world is successfully shut.