[TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2018, 10:14:20 pm »
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE

At the risk of derailing the thread (though maybe not, as this is still about the JE), you have no idea how much I've wished Mimara (or someone else with the Eye) had been a POV during PON ever since we started the forum reread. Even considering Mimara can only look at so many people with the JE, I'd still be very, very curious to see how she would have seen characters such as Serwë or Conphas, or even characters she actually saw during TAE (Cnaiür, Esmenet...) to see if a particular person is always seen the same way through the JE. I actually brought up this last particular point in the Quorum the other day. I think it could ultimately work one of two ways: a) as the God is outside of time, any particular person would always look the same when seen by the JE at any point in their life (as their life "would have already been lived" in the eyes of the God); b) the God is outside of time, but the person with the JE is human, and so that "warps" what they see, which can change with time. There are just so many possibilities...


Yep, we went over that quite thoroughly in our last reread.

Probably something that merits further discussion when it comes up in this new reread...


I'm inclined to believe she would see what Kellhus told Proyas. Damnation.

Think so?

We can point to many cases where Kellhus is wrong...all throughout the series. Hell, @Locke has a great thread around here pointing out all such instances. I tend to believe that the "common" people got it right and revere her as a holy figure...

I'm not so sure she would be damned either. I mean, she could be (I could see reasoning for both damnation and salvation), but I agree with MSJ in that we should take Kellhus' opinions with a grain of salt (heh).


Ah yes, I forgot about that. Although it is possible that Kellhus only said that to condition Proyas. He needed to turn Proyas into an unbeliever, and telling him Serwe is damned would be a good way to cement Proyas' disbelief

This is a very plausible possibility.


I would like to know why many people think that the Gods are out of the picture while the No-God is active. They are not at all out of anything, they just can't act against the No-God effectively (they can still wreak havoc for other reasons, for example). The faculties of the Gods are impaired by the System, but they are not completely nullified until the world is successfully shut.

They aren't completely nullified, sure, but their role in the story becomes much more limited after the rise of the No-God. I would be surprised if they happened to have as much of an influence in the story in TNG as they did in TAE (with the exception of Ajokli, perhaps).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Swayal Serpent

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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2018, 10:15:32 pm »


Quote from:  SwayaliSerpent
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE?

Yep, we went over that quite thoroughly in our last reread.

Oh ok, sorry if I've been bringing up old topics. I drive trucks cross country, so I've been listening to the audiobooks lately. It's tough to analyze when your driving a big rig lol

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MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2018, 10:19:31 pm »
Didnt mean to cut your speculation off, just was pointing you to some good convo on the subject. But, yes, Bakker said Serwe was a cipher and it hits home with Koringhus's revelations, so to say.

ETA: it might have not been in the reread, but in TGO's ARC(advanced reading copy) discussion.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 10:25:31 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2018, 10:20:09 pm »
They aren't completely nullified, sure, but their role in the story becomes much more limited after the rise of the No-God. I would be surprised if they happened to have as much of an influence in the story in TNG as they did in TAE (with the exception of Ajokli, perhaps).
This is a pretty big exception, though. And there are just so many ways to weave the Gods into the narrative that I have serious doubts they won't play a notable role.

Swayal Serpent

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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2018, 10:25:12 pm »
Didnt mean to cut your speculation off, just was pointing you to some good convo on the subject. But, yes, Bakker said Serwe was a cipher and it hits home with Koringhus's revelations, so to say.
Well thank you for the reccomendation. I didn't know there was a community re read going on, I'll check out that topic

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2018, 10:27:45 pm »
Oh ok, sorry if I've been bringing up old topics. I drive trucks cross country, so I've been listening to the audiobooks lately. It's tough to analyze when your driving a big rig lol

There's still much to discuss on this particular topic, though, so by all means carry on. ;) I wasn't around when most of the Serwë discussion took place either, so I think there's always a chance one or more of us can come up with something new here.


This is a pretty big exception, though. And there are just so many ways to weave the Gods into the narrative that I have serious doubts they won't play a notable role.

Alright, I admit that it is (Ajokli is always a notable exception when compared to the other Gods, anyway). That was mostly my opinion on the Gods' roles in TNG, I might end up being completely mistaken on that. :)
I feel confident that Yatwer is probably not going to get heavily involved, though. She had her role to play in TAE, and as the Mother of Birth, her influence likely won't be felt for quite a while in-universe (again, just my opinion).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

MSJ

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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2018, 10:28:55 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
I would like to know why many people think that the Gods are out of the picture while the No-God is active. They are not at all out of anything, they just can't act against the No-God effectively (they can still wreak havoc for other reasons, for example). The faculties of the Gods are impaired by the System, but they are not completely nullified until the world is successfully shut.

Me too. Its always baffled me that so many seem to think them mute. I agree they might not have as big a role (I tend to think Kellhus will fill most of that vacuum.), but they'll certainly still be in play.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2018, 10:51:32 pm »
Here's the passage from TGO where Koringhus defined the Cubit, or rather what made the Cubit approve. If its not a tee-total definition of Serwe, I dont know what is. You can go before and after this passage and see once he deduced this, then the Cubit (Eye) approved of him.

Quote
And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture. Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation. At last he could see it—the sideways step that gave lie to Logos.
Zero. Zero made One.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2018, 01:54:49 am »
Here's the passage from TGO where Koringhus defined the Cubit, or rather what made the Cubit approve. If its not a tee-total definition of Serwe, I dont know what is. You can go before and after this passage and see once he deduced this, then the Cubit (Eye) approved of him.

Quote
And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture. Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation. At last he could see it—the sideways step that gave lie to Logos.
Zero. Zero made One.

( scratching my head ) ... so accepting ignorance as holy and being ignorant is equivalent to the Cubit? Getting why ignorance saves the soul saves those who gain this insight as well?
May your death be soon, slow and painful

MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2018, 02:56:05 am »
Its not equal to the Cubit, it what the Eye, the view of the God, finds holy. Blindness, equals ignorance. Surrender...forfeit, those are synonyms with innocence. That's why Kornghus was found saved in the very next scene. You have to read it all to get the gist, I'm not quoting a half a chapter...

And yea, its why Kellhus keeps Esme ignorant of what he does. Finds her pure, calls her the World. He knows its what saves you, and when Mimara looks on Esme, well, she's saved right?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 02:58:46 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2018, 03:16:44 am »
Ok, ill go a little more in depth so...(you're not scratching your head). ;)

A paragraph or two before that quote is this one. And, you have to know the Eye is open watching Koringhus through all of this.

Quote
The Survivor drew a sleeve across his hideousness, looked to him, his son. The Legion-within howled and clamoured, stamped and spit. Only now did he understand …
Ignorance. Only ignorance had sealed the interval between them. Only blindness, the wilful idiocy that was worldborn love.

Then directly after my first quote, scene cut, then this.

Quote
The Eye watches. Approves.

Now, remember before all of this Koringhus and every other Dûnyain is damned by the Eye. So, this is proof that whatever watches from Mimara, the Eye, the Cubit, the God, whatever you wanna call it, offers salvation. Koringhus went from damned to being approved, by Just understanding the Eye/Cubit. Its proof in my book, Qirri high or no...

ETA: in my book, Koringhus sees farther than Kellhus. Can see its his only chance at salvation, and makes the leap...the leap, that is his.

ETAA: not only understanding. The Eye sees that he loves his son, also. He has a heart, isn't just a ruthless Dûnyain. Take in the whole chapter: Demua Mountains, TGO and you'll get a better grasp at what happens.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 03:34:08 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2018, 04:05:40 am »
Just reread that whole chapter. Great f'n chapter. I love how Akka reacts after the Leap. Funny. He says to Mimara, "I told you, I told you not to give him any!". Then, grumpy with Mimara he answers the Boy about which way they go, and says, "That way Boy....The world ends that way!" Humour mixed with foreshadowing, good stuff.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2018, 08:38:47 pm »
And yea, its why Kellhus keeps Esme ignorant of what he does. Finds her pure, calls her the World. He knows its what saves you, and when Mimara looks on Esme, well, she's saved right?

I thought Serwë was the one referred to as "the World", was Esmenet ever called this? I honestly can't remember...


Ok, ill go a little more in depth so...(you're not scratching your head). ;)

A paragraph or two before that quote is this one. And, you have to know the Eye is open watching Koringhus through all of this.

Quote
The Survivor drew a sleeve across his hideousness, looked to him, his son. The Legion-within howled and clamoured, stamped and spit. Only now did he understand …
Ignorance. Only ignorance had sealed the interval between them. Only blindness, the wilful idiocy that was worldborn love.

Then directly after my first quote, scene cut, then this.

Quote
The Eye watches. Approves.

Now, remember before all of this Koringhus and every other Dûnyain is damned by the Eye. So, this is proof that whatever watches from Mimara, the Eye, the Cubit, the God, whatever you wanna call it, offers salvation. Koringhus went from damned to being approved, by Just understanding the Eye/Cubit. Its proof in my book, Qirri high or no...

ETA: in my book, Koringhus sees farther than Kellhus. Can see its his only chance at salvation, and makes the leap...the leap, that is his.

ETAA: not only understanding. The Eye sees that he loves his son, also. He has a heart, isn't just a ruthless Dûnyain. Take in the whole chapter: Demua Mountains, TGO and you'll get a better grasp at what happens.

I had completely forgotten that the JE had "approved" of Koringhus' realization. Then we do have proof that X person seen with it can appear different over time, change from regular damnation to "Ciphrang-level", from damned to saved, etc.
It's very tragic and yet heartwarming, Koringhus sees he has now been redeemed from the "Dûnyain original sin" and chooses to end his life right there, before he slips back into the damnation of his ancestors. He really is such a great character, even if he's just around for a couple of chapters.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

MSJ

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« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2018, 08:46:20 pm »
Quote from:  ThoughtsofThelli
I thought Serwë was the one referred to as "the World", was Esmenet ever called this? I honestly can't remember...

I thought something to that effect, or close enough, at the beginning of TUC...
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2018, 09:04:20 pm »
Quote from:  ThoughtsofThelli
I had completely forgotten that the JE had "approved" of Koringhus' realization. Then we do have proof that X person seen with it can appear different over time, change from regular damnation to "Ciphrang-level", from damned to saved, etc.
It's very tragic and yet heartwarming, Koringhus sees he has now been redeemed from the "Dûnyain original sin" and chooses to end his life right there, before he slips back into the damnation of his ancestors. He really is such a great character, even if he's just around for a couple of chapters.

Did you reread the chapter? There are some really great quotes in that chapter, can't wait 2 years til we get there!! You got the "99 stones and the type of birds he killed", which I think an allegory for the series in some way. And, "The Heaper of the Dead", which really got a shock from everyone. Overall, just jammed packed of good nuggets, like, I thought, everything in TGO.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,