Do Nonmen have princes/princesses?

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« on: August 04, 2018, 07:54:17 pm »
This was something I started wondering about when creating wiki articles for Cet'moyol and Linqirû today. I ended up using those titles in the infoboxes anyway, but I wanted to know everyone else's opinions on this matter.
As SmilerLoki and I were discussing in the Quorum, no children of Nonmen kings seem to ever be referred to as "prince" or "princess" (Cû'jara-Cinmoi's parents, Cû'jara-Cinmoi himself before his grandfather's death, Nil'giccas before his father's death, etc.). I'm still doubtful that the absence of these titles definitely means that they don't exist, especially since most of the relevant characters aren't mentioned that often. Opinions?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Hirtius/Pansa

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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2018, 01:04:56 am »
Cet'ingira is referred to as a Prince in the first TTT chapter in the Dagliash flashback. Odd though, as he's not an Ishroi, if I remember. Just Quya.

I can't think of any others.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2018, 01:54:26 am »
Cet'ingira is referred to as a Prince in the first TTT chapter in the Dagliash flashback. Odd though, as he's not an Ishroi, if I remember. Just Quya.

I can't think of any others.
He's referred to as Prince by Seswatha, not by other Nonmen. He is also not of the line of Tsonos, since Nin'ciljiras is considered to be what's left of it. So Cet'ingira is highly unlikely an actual Nonman Prince.

Also, Quya and Ishroi seem to be equal in their standing. For example, Nil'giccas's mother, Tsinirû, was a Quya and at the same time queen of Ishoriol.

Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2018, 05:01:24 pm »
If I had to guess, I'd say it was a quirk of honorifics being abscent, but I'd guess that the line of Tsonos would just be royalty, with the new head being annoited as king, however that's decided.

Kind of a moot point, when there aren't any more children, and the last title given was probably Last Born. Being next-in-line isn't super relevant when the Title holder is immortal lol.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2018, 05:12:06 pm »
Cet'ingira is referred to as a Prince in the first TTT chapter in the Dagliash flashback. Odd though, as he's not an Ishroi, if I remember. Just Quya.

I can't think of any others.

I had forgotten about that! It is somehow strange, since as far as we know Cet'ingira (like SmilerLoki said) is not of the line of Tsonos and therefore has no royal blood. Maybe he had a sobriquet ("Prince of ____", it would be similar to "Lord of ____", which we've seen before in Nonmen) and Men started referring to him as a prince because of that? Or maybe he never had any such title and it was an actual mistake someone made at some point which kept being repeated through the ages? Who knows...


He's referred to as Prince by Seswatha, not by other Nonmen. He is also not of the line of Tsonos, since Nin'ciljiras is considered to be what's left of it. So Cet'ingira is highly unlikely an actual Nonman Prince.

Also, Quya and Ishroi seem to be equal in their standing. For example, Nil'giccas's mother, Tsinirû, was a Quya and at the same time queen of Ishoriol.

Exactly, it was probably a mistake started by someone who wouldn't know if he was of the line of Tsonos or not, or part of some poetic designation, something along those lines. Anyway, I think Cet'ingira is probably the only Nonman to be referred to as a prince (even if not actually one), which is kind of a shame, as I'd like to have an actual answer on this...

They do seem to have roughly equal standing, but, then again, we might not have enough examples to be sure. If I remember correctly, Nil'giccas was actually both Qûya and Ishroi, right? Status of Qûya might also be different if the Nonman in question is a monarch (like Tsinirû and Nil'giccas).


If I had to guess, I'd say it was a quirk of honorifics being abscent, but I'd guess that the line of Tsonos would just be royalty, with the new head being annoited as king, however that's decided.

Kind of a moot point, when there aren't any more children, and the last title given was probably Last Born. Being next-in-line isn't super relevant when the Title holder is immortal lol.

That's what I thought, but it seems odd to me that they'd have the equivalent titles for king and queen but not for other royals. I wonder if they were just referred to as "X, heir to Y" or "X of the line of Tsonos", or something similar.

It's a moot point now (in-universe), but it wouldn't have been when the characters that got me thinking about this were alive. That's what I was getting at, I wanted to know if the title of prince/princess (or some equivalent) had ever existed in Nonman society.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2018, 05:24:35 pm »
If I remember correctly, Nil'giccas was actually both Qûya and Ishroi, right?
Strictly speaking, I only remember him being referred to as King (everywhere) and Quya (by Achamian and Mimara when they were traveling with him), but not as Ishroi.

It might be that since he's a sorcerer, he can't be Ishroi by default.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 05:27:08 pm »
If I remember correctly, Nil'giccas was actually both Qûya and Ishroi, right?
Strictly speaking, I only remember him being referred to as King (everywhere) and Quya (by Achamian and Mimara when they were traveling with him), but not as Ishroi.

It might be that since he's a sorcerer, he can't be Ishroi by default.

I think that Achamian (and then by extension Mimara) referred to him as an Ishroi at several points. But this was before they knew his actual identity, so I might have formed a mistaken assumption that the two are not mutually exclusive from this case...


EDIT: This was what I was thinking of:
Quote from: TJE, Chapter 14
"His Mark means he's old … older than you could imagine. And that means he's not only a Qûya Mage, but Ishroi, a Nonman noble …"
Akka seems to think they're not mutually exclusive.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 05:30:49 pm by ThoughtsOfThelli »
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 07:23:43 pm »
That line is further curious, as age is the delimiting factor for Nobel, not birthright. That line specifically makes it sound like there were no more nobles after a certain time period.

My earlier point was more to the effect that titles were dropped at some point from the annuls. Humans writing down the history of the Nonmen might have thought it pointless to transcribe old titles? Or some kind of translation difficulty - could be the titles are actually in their names. Like the Cil' prefix meaning Prince, or something... Just spitballing.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2018, 08:04:35 pm »
EDIT: This was what I was thinking of:
Quote from: TJE, Chapter 14
"His Mark means he's old … older than you could imagine. And that means he's not only a Qûya Mage, but Ishroi, a Nonman noble …"
Akka seems to think they're not mutually exclusive.
This actually makes me think it's more of a case of inconsistent terminology. Which is nice and realistic.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2018, 01:15:26 pm »
That line is further curious, as age is the delimiting factor for Nobel, not birthright. That line specifically makes it sound like there were no more nobles after a certain time period.

Makes sense that it would be so after everyone that was still around was immortal, with the majority of them on the way to becoming Erratic.


My earlier point was more to the effect that titles were dropped at some point from the annuls. Humans writing down the history of the Nonmen might have thought it pointless to transcribe old titles? Or some kind of translation difficulty - could be the titles are actually in their names. Like the Cil' prefix meaning Prince, or something... Just spitballing.

I see, it could have been the case as well. We should never underestimate the issues caused by translation difficulties and mistakes...


This actually makes me think it's more of a case of inconsistent terminology. Which is nice and realistic.

Very true.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)