Thought about other supports?

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TaoHorror

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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2018, 01:58:28 pm »
Quote from: SmilerLoki
I maintain that I'm not being adamantly dismissive. I simply employ a strategy (based on my experience) for getting enjoyable content. It's like choosing food, only for books.

Examples aren't the point, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just trying to understand you. I don't have one off hand, if I think of one later, I'll be sure to post it - but even if there hasn't been a single case where it has happened, it's still not the point - the whole point of this conversation is approach to new material/art. Are you open to anything goes ( I am ) or do you have preconceptions/prejudgment ( maybe you? )? It matters, imho - approach to the new/unknown impacts what we get out of our exposure to the new/unknown, do we allow ourselves to learn, to "update" our paradigm. I don't believe there is a perfect psychology - so there's a cost to my "openness" and I'm not proselyting anyone to be so themselves. I'm just trying to vet out your stance, to understand it. From what I can tell, your approach is for efficiency, to avoid wasting your time on something you think you won't like - as opposed to avoiding "being let down" by "bad" art.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2018, 02:55:22 pm »
Examples aren't the point, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just trying to understand you.
Same here! But I might be going slightly farther. I'm running my approach past you in hopes of getting valuable data. It might sound a bit utilitarian, but I sorely need an improvement to my system of getting content. So far I read about 10-20 books a year and drop about 10 more without finishing them, and it's not enough for me. I need probably twice as many to satisfy my needs. It's important to me since I'm a writer, too, and reading helps my writing. It puts me in the right mood.

And it's so rare for me to have an opportunity to talk about it that I couldn't resist holding onto this conversation. Like, this is why your example about not being able to read an American novel as an American is strange to me. It's actually much easier for me to speak with you about it than with people I interact with in Russian. You simply understand me faster (by an order of magnitude, no less). Around 10 posts, and we're already getting somewhere (or at least I am), while usually people just look at me uncomprehendingly at this point. Not to mention you know what "House of Leaves" is!

So, um, sorry for being verbose. And I deeply appreciate your time!

Are you open to anything goes ( I am ) or do you have preconceptions/prejudgment ( maybe you? )?
You got it right below, it's really not on this level of abstraction, but more specific. It's not that I would be contrary to new art or concepts, it's just I seek enjoyment first and foremost. It is connected, though. I have somewhat high standards, both because I've consumed a lot of content and because I'm a writer myself. It does clash with the fact that I basically like YA fiction or might exhibit idiosyncratic tastes (I was watching "Miraculous Ladybug" while reading "Echopraxia" and loved both; this is not a joke). But the fact is, I've also found that authors building on the work of others directly (instead of indirectly, i.e. by being inspired) are less competent. And less ambitious, which is also important for writing an interesting story.

That being said, I can tell, with reasonable amount of certainty, that something I've started to read is good only around 25% mark. Unfortunately, many books are hard to get into, and I often find myself stuck for days on first chapters. It just isn't at all constructive, and so I developed my system in part to avoid that exact situation. For example, I've read 4 chapters of "The Three-Body Problem", and they were not enjoyable, but I can't say yet whether the book is to my liking or not. But I'm also unable to continue reading it, which was established in multiple attempts at reading sessions. Obviously, it took time, and, just as obviously, hasn't produced a favorable result.

So, in theory I'm open to anything new as far as content goes, but in practice I have very real constraints dictated by me being a human with limited time and abilities. What I'm talking about is not a fundamental thing, but essentially what science was first called to do - a way of producing better results based on past experiences (or experiments). When we're talking fundamentals, I actively want to find something that would allow me to update my paradigm! In fact, that's what I'm trying to do by having this discussion.

The problem is, unfiltered input doesn't seem to produce good enough results for me, while filtered satisfies 50% of my reading needs. I'm actively seeking a way to increase that number.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2018, 05:18:12 pm »
Culture is a big thing, no question, but it doesn't strike me as even close to being that ingrained.

The reality is probably somewhere between our points, me thinking cultural adds more than what it does to our identity, you thinking it adds less than so. You're more right, we still gain from translations of great works.

In reality, Russian identity died with the Soviet Union. Right now it's a cadaver. It might not ever regenerate.

Well, we look forward to the day The Russian Federation joins NATO - hoping the Russian people would enjoy such a relationship  ;D

I was kinda hoping you'll have some good examples. We don't have to agree about them, just something that worked for you.

I concede nothing of merit comes to mind at the moment - I could cherry pick and use comics as an example ( Frank Miller's early work on Batman towers above all that preceded it, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing essentially made it is own ). But I'll let you know if something more substantial bubbles up.

I maintain that I'm not being adamantly dismissive. I simply employ a strategy (based on my experience) for getting enjoyable content. It's like choosing food, only for books.

I'm with you a little - My last 3 reads I've abandoned ( well, haven't completely given up on Malazan just yet, but not looking good ... the likes of Bakker/Herbert/Simmons has spoiled me ). I too only have so much time, best spent on the good stuff. That said, I give all works a fair shake regardless of origination.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2018, 05:42:20 pm »
Well, we look forward to the day The Russian Federation joins NATO - hoping the Russian people would enjoy such a relationship  ;D
As far as I remember, Putin put forward a similar idea around the year 2000. But Russia is considered a scary and strange place, so no luck.

I concede nothing of merit comes to mind at the moment - I could cherry pick and use comics as an example ( Frank Miller's early work on Batman towers above all that preceded it, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing essentially made it is own ). But I'll let you know if something more substantial bubbles up.
Oh, comics are a thing in themselves. They are vast and far reaching as cultural impact goes, but at the same time their long history works against them when we're talking artistic value. There is just too much baggage in every single big comic series, so a good writer is getting dragged down by all the bad ones, while bad ones are getting dragged up by their more talented colleagues. The end result is, well, what main comic universes are today. I couldn't get into them, not even for Miller or Moore.

My relationship with comics is an academic one, I study them, but I don't - can't - read them.

That said, I give all works a fair shake regardless of origination.
Well, I've encountered many unreadable works (like, straight up unintelligible fare, bad fanfic level), so I wouldn't say I give everything a chance. But everything I can read ten pages of without pulling my hair out, sure!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 08:48:02 am by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2018, 03:48:14 pm »
I feel that anime is an under-utilized media platform for telling stories - specifically adapting books to screens.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2018, 04:18:11 pm »
I feel that anime is an under-utilized media platform for telling stories - specifically adapting books to screens.
Only in the Western world. In Japan, almost all even slightly popular mangas and light novels have anime adaptations. I'm very happy with it.

Wilshire

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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2018, 07:02:37 pm »
I feel that anime is an under-utilized media platform for telling stories - specifically adapting books to screens.
Only in the Western world. In Japan, almost all even slightly popular mangas and light novels have anime adaptations. I'm very happy with it.

My thinking is very American-centric lol. I usually forget people form other countries are usually around. Makes sense that other parts of the world, especially Japan where it comes form, gets more of it.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2018, 03:25:08 am »
I feel that anime is an under-utilized media platform for telling stories - specifically adapting books to screens.
Only in the Western world. In Japan, almost all even slightly popular mangas and light novels have anime adaptations. I'm very happy with it.

My thinking is very American-centric lol. I usually forget people form other countries are usually around. Makes sense that other parts of the world, especially Japan where it comes form, gets more of it.

I'm interested in anime, the problem being I indulge entertainment on my own terms and anime seems the most difficult to approach that way. At least in the West, it's a niche world populated by people conceitedly keeping it that way. It's a curious sociological phenomenon - like people who perceive they're not accepted in the popular sphere and counter it by creating a sphere prohibiting participation in kind. Full immersion is the only accepted level of participation with much more importance on the social sharing aspects than appreciation for the work. Ergo, it's difficult to get into it as just wanting to see the "good" stuff every so often. Scanning IMDB won't cut it.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2018, 01:59:04 pm »
"Anime" is a big space. You'd want to drill into it before you get started - read some wiki pages, see what 'genres' exist within it. A lot of it is for kids - like obvious Dragon Ball Z angle where you essentially have fighting interspersed with bad dialog about why they are fighting and the good guy wins by juuuust a hair.

There's also a lot of really irritating tropes that get old, and ruin what would otherwise be perfectly entertaining. Like how usually everyone is about 12 years old and all the woman are hyper sexualized to the point of absurdity, there's usually a comic relief character in the form of an animated object or animal that's extremely irritating, given that most come from japan anime worlds tend to be extremely patriarchal, etc. etc.

Its also a cartoon.

These are all reasons why its not popular, generally speaking. You are totally right though about it isolated groups isolating themselves to a point lol. ts always amusing to me when marginalized groups marginalize themselves and others, but thats a different topic.

Another barrier is that translations tend to be mediocre. The subtitled versions that still have the Japanese voices tend to be far superior, but then you're stuck reading subtitles. The ones redubbed in english tend to have much worse writing and the voice acting isn't as good either - I suspect this is because US producers think the audience is just kids so they dumb it down.

So your choices are irritating subtitles, or bad translations lol. There's some stuff out there worth watching, but I don't really have any recommendations for where to get started. Just look up some 'best anime' lists and pick a couple, watch about 3 episodes dubbed and see what you think.

As a general statement though, what you get with anime is way different than what you get with your typical tv shows. There seems to be a lot more creative freedom, and a lot less commercial pressures, which I think provides a potentially superior outlet for converting books.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 02:01:06 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2018, 02:33:54 pm »
There's also a lot of really irritating tropes that get old, and ruin what would otherwise be perfectly entertaining. Like how usually everyone is about 12 years old and all the woman are hyper sexualized to the point of absurdity, there's usually a comic relief character in the form of an animated object or animal that's extremely irritating, given that most come from japan anime worlds tend to be extremely patriarchal, etc. etc.

Right, I think part of it comes with the fact that a lot of Japanese anime is done in a very particular style of storytelling.  I'd almost say it is "uniquely" "culturally Japanese" in this sense, but it isn't as if I know enough about it to really say that definitively.  It comes from (I think) something of anime's precursor, the Manga.  Take the Berserk manga, which has plenty of elements as disturbing and brutal as anything tSA has ever explored (sometimes even more), but also has elf/faeries that made side jokes and Star Wars references.

Not that I watch a ton of it, but something more like Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, which I think was actually made in English (I think), is generally different than what comes direct out of Japan.

Another barrier is that translations tend to be mediocre. The subtitled versions that still have the Japanese voices tend to be far superior, but then you're stuck reading subtitles. The ones redubbed in english tend to have much worse writing and the voice acting isn't as good either - I suspect this is because US producers think the audience is just kids so they dumb it down.

So your choices are irritating subtitles, or bad translations lol. There's some stuff out there worth watching, but I don't really have any recommendations for where to get started. Just look up some 'best anime' lists and pick a couple, watch about 3 episodes dubbed and see what you think.

Well, part of it is the trouble of cultural idiom.  Another is just the general difficulty of translation, period.  Also, for people who don't speak Japanese, I think Japanese generally sounds more serious/dramatic than it actually is, with exceptions of course (at least it does to me).  Subtitles don't bother me though, but I guess they do for some people.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2018, 03:37:51 pm »
Well, part of it is the trouble of cultural idiom.  Another is just the general difficulty of translation, period.  Also, for people who don't speak Japanese, I think Japanese generally sounds more serious/dramatic than it actually is, with exceptions of course (at least it does to me).  Subtitles don't bother me though, but I guess they do for some people.

Lol you're probably write - Japanese sounds dramatic, and often the dramatic lines, ones redubbed into english sound silly. What I dont understand though is why the subbed version it doesn't look near so strange.

I used to only watch it subbed, but now my TV watching is usually combined with something else. Usually the TV is background noise and I'm doing something else. Subtitles make you pay a lot more attention.

... I Just had a thought. Japanese is spoken very quickly. Sometimes whole sentences flash across the screen very rapidly. It might just be that when spoken, the actors simply can't say all the words to match the action/camera on-screen. This likely leads to  shortening phrases so that the english speakers can say what needs to be said in the time provided. This reduction causes words to be shortened to their diminutive counterparts - something like changing "extraordinary" to "cool".
Never though of it that way before. Very interesting.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2018, 03:44:00 pm »
You're right about the subtitles being an overall better experience than dubbing for much of it. I watched The Vision of Escaflowne subtitled and enjoyed it, though reading subtitles can wear you down ( just having to keep up, not having to read ). I enjoyed Ghost in the Machine and Princess Mononoke in English dubbing.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2018, 03:49:45 pm »
... I Just had a thought. Japanese is spoken very quickly. Sometimes whole sentences flash across the screen very rapidly. It might just be that when spoken, the actors simply can't say all the words to match the action/camera on-screen. This likely leads to  shortening phrases so that the english speakers can say what needs to be said in the time provided. This reduction causes words to be shortened to their diminutive counterparts - something like changing "extraordinary" to "cool".
Never though of it that way before. Very interesting.
It's also 100% true and a very serious concern for localization that relates to many languages alongside Japanese. For example, the size of text boxes in mediums where they exist (like manga) is always a problem, which often requires creative translating work.

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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2018, 04:25:26 pm »
Lol you're probably write - Japanese sounds dramatic, and often the dramatic lines, ones redubbed into english sound silly. What I dont understand though is why the subbed version it doesn't look near so strange.

I used to only watch it subbed, but now my TV watching is usually combined with something else. Usually the TV is background noise and I'm doing something else. Subtitles make you pay a lot more attention.

... I Just had a thought. Japanese is spoken very quickly. Sometimes whole sentences flash across the screen very rapidly. It might just be that when spoken, the actors simply can't say all the words to match the action/camera on-screen. This likely leads to  shortening phrases so that the english speakers can say what needs to be said in the time provided. This reduction causes words to be shortened to their diminutive counterparts - something like changing "extraordinary" to "cool".
Never though of it that way before. Very interesting.

This is a problem for not only dubbing things, but even for tranlating for subtitles.  Directly transliterating what is said is often not helpful, because of things like idiom but also because it would take you forever to read it on screen.  I recall when that second Ghost In the Shell movie came out, all that was available for a while online were fansubs.  Since they aren't professional traslaters, thy just wrote down what everyone literally said.  The result was sometimes strange, but also almost always so verbose that at times something like nearly a quarter of the screen was subtitles.

It's true, the same goes for dubs, as you point out.  And it's worse there, because the timing is even more difficult, because idiom is different and words are simply different lengths.  There is also a problem like the following:

If a character says "Kon'nichiwa" and another says "Ohayo Gozaimasu" both could be translated to English as "Hello" as they do sort of mean the same thing.  So, it depends on if the translator chooses to capture that nuance, or not.  It gets even more complicated when, for example, in Chinese, certain words have negative connotations because of other words they look like written or sounds like spoken.  There is no way to really convey that translated to English.  I'm not expert, but there are likely tons of examples of this in other languages too.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2018, 05:00:03 pm »
Dubs are stupid.