[Spoilers] Is the Consult doomed to fail?

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Cuttlefish

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« on: August 23, 2018, 01:20:09 pm »
A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.

So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2018, 01:54:34 pm »
A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.

So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2018, 07:23:10 pm »
Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
May your death be soon, slow and painful

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2018, 07:35:35 pm »
A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.

So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.
This.

Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
I'm still puzzled by that statement, and Bakker's answer in the AMA does not make it any more clear.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2018, 08:06:08 pm »
A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.

So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.
This.

Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
I'm still puzzled by that statement, and Bakker's answer in the AMA does not make it any more clear.

I forget, but Kellhus explains in the read that they have to end up winning otherwise there weren't be some current thing/condition in present day. Something about the gods maybe.
May your death be soon, slow and painful

profgrape

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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2018, 11:13:01 am »
A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.

So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.
This.

Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
I'm still puzzled by that statement, and Bakker's answer in the AMA does not make it any more clear.

I forget, but Kellhus explains in the read that they have to end up winning otherwise there weren't be some current thing/condition in present day. Something about the gods maybe.
I think the reason is, the gods can't see beyond the Eschaton/end, the NG *is* that end, the gods actions demonstrate their a blindness to the NG, ergo the NG will rise at some point in the future.

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2018, 04:53:19 pm »
I think the reason is, the gods can't see beyond the Eschaton/end, the NG *is* that end, the gods actions demonstrate their a blindness to the NG, ergo the NG will rise at some point in the future.
I agree with this 100%. But to bring back what Cuttlefish points out, the IF shows everyone that they are in hell or whatever.

To square these two thoughts: Kellhus misidentified the winners. The gab in the God's vision is not indicative of a Consult victory. It only shows that the No-God completes its mission, which is much different. Everyone that sees themselves as Damned is in fact destined to be in hell - its a forgone conclusion. However, those that do not see themselves in the IF are the ones that survive.

This could mean any number of things. To me, it heavily suggests that the Inchoroi/Proginators are the final victors. That the world is exterminated, that all men and nonmen, except maybe the 144k, are killed and their souls end up in hell. This includes both the past and the present Consult, all the nonmen that viewed it (all of which are pretty much dead so that makes sense), all the past Inchoroi (all dead now, so that checks out too), all the humans (again, all are dead, at least the ones that looked into it so far).

If you think about it, it's extremely unlikely that any one person/thing that views the IF is one of the select 144k. Of all the entities through all time, only the last 144k end up somewhere other than hell.

Thinking back, who anyone in the room that didn't mention the IF? IIRC, it was our favorite sociopathic murderer, Kelmomas.

What would the IF look like to someone who wasn't destined to be in hell? Perhaps its entirely invisible. An empty ring. Nothing.
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H

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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2018, 06:19:35 pm »
Is it also plausible that the Inverse Fire shows you the moment to moment truth that if you do not reach the transcendental ideal, until the last moment, then you are indeed damned?

So, naturally, unless you have stumbled upon the pinnacle of your existence, or are currently living in the perfect balance, then of course the Inverse Fire shows you are damned.  Because the ideal is to work to the point of transcendence, that moment being, of course, the moment of death.  Or, working to the balance of Oblivion, of course.  The reason this "works" is because if you achieve the pinnacle (or moment, perhaps, in the physics sense) in death, then you simply do not have the time to fuck it back up and be out of tune again.  The point being, that once again, the Inverse Fire isn't a lie, per se, nor is it truth, immutable.  It really is the Goad.  Because it seduces you into the trap of nihilism, because that is far easier than striving for the transcendental ideal.

I don't really understand if Kellhus realizes this though.  In the sense of how he predicts that the "Consult must win."  I mean, I also don't really understand how Kellhus fashions that argument anyway, so I'm surely missing something.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2018, 06:20:28 pm »
A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.

So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.
This.

Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
I'm still puzzled by that statement, and Bakker's answer in the AMA does not make it any more clear.

I forget, but Kellhus explains in the read that they have to end up winning otherwise there weren't be some current thing/condition in present day. Something about the gods maybe.
I think the reason is, the gods can't see beyond the Eschaton/end, the NG *is* that end, the gods actions demonstrate their a blindness to the NG, ergo the NG will rise at some point in the future.
I get what you're saying, but on the other hand, how can the Gods see and end related to something they can't see?

Everyone that sees themselves as Damned is in fact destined to be in hell - its a forgone conclusion. However, those that do not see themselves in the IF are the ones that survive.
Not according to the definition in the glossary for The Inverse Fire:
Quote
Subparticular intentional field machine linking individual observational frames of reference to their eternal fate in the Outside. ...


Quote from: Wilshire
That the world is exterminated, that all men and nonmen, except maybe the 144k, are killed and their souls end up in hell
The souls that die during the No-God don't pass into the Outside IIRC.

Quote from: Wilshire
What would the IF look like to someone who wasn't destined to be in hell? Perhaps its entirely invisible. An empty ring. Nothing.
Nau-Cayuti saw the Inverse Fire, but I can't remember if he gazed into it.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 06:26:24 pm by TLEILAXU »

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2018, 06:36:13 pm »
FWIW, the Gods cant see an end, they believe they are eternal.

Anway, yeah most of what I said presuppose that most of what we know about the IF, meaning most of what characters in the books think, is just wrong. This is only useful because there are so many paradoxical/contradictory things about it. Just an attempt to bring together some of these things.

"The soul that encounters it goes not further", the whole still-born child thing ... I'd say that this can still be true, just that once the NG was blow up, it released the souls. Anyone that saw the IF saw their soul Post-NG-Imprisonment. Alternatively, the NG sucked up relatively few souls and yet again no one that has gazed into the IF was one of them?

Where did Nau see the IF, was that False Son or Akka dream sequence? I'd be interested to see what he says about it either way.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2018, 06:39:08 pm »
FWIW, the Gods cant see an end, they believe they are eternal.
Or maybe the God intends to destroy creation at some point, hence the "doom outside of doom" line.

Quote from: Wilshire
"The soul that encounters it goes not further", the whole still-born child thing ... I'd say that this can still be true, just that once the NG was blow up, it released the souls.
Yeah this is what I'm going to go with.

Quote
Where did Nau see the IF, was that False Son or Akka dream sequence? I'd be interested to see what he says about it either way.
Akka dream sequence. I vaguely remember the description of fire being reflected off the floor.

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2018, 06:49:13 pm »
Oh right, false son was way before Nau.
Checked the chapter 1 excerpt, didn't say anything about it. Ah well. If he did see a reflection, he obviously didn't see nothing.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2018, 11:27:33 pm »
all the nonmen that viewed it (all of which are pretty much dead so that makes sense)
And one of them is confirmed to find Oblivion.

The souls that die during the No-God don't pass into the Outside IIRC.
We aren't certain about that. A dragon believed that, but then we have a dream relating the Celmomian Prophecy, which is at odds with that belief. Celmomas saw himself being carried to the afterlife of Gilgaol (at least Celmomas thought so) when the No-God was active.

profgrape

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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2018, 02:18:20 am »
It might be that the IF only simulates the general experience of damnation. Which is different from showing the subject the experience of their own post-physical destiny. 

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2018, 02:21:50 am »
It might be that the IF only simulates the general experience of damnation. Which is different from showing the subject the experience of their own post-physical destiny.
This is my primary theory right now. It's also somewhat close to what H is outlining.