ARC: TWP Chapter 10

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TheCulminatingApe

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« on: October 05, 2018, 06:25:32 pm »
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Love is lust made meaningful.  Hope is hunger made human
- AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

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How does one learn innocence?  How does one teach ignorance?  For to be them is to know them not.  And yet they are the immovable point from the compass of life swings, the measure of all crime and compassion, the rule of all wisdom and folly.  They are the Absolute
- ANONYMOUS, THE IMPROMPTA
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 06:54:31 pm by TheCulminatingApe »
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2018, 03:03:54 pm »
Firstly, the epigraphs, both of which are very explicit.

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Love is lust made meaningful.  Hope is hunger made human
The difference between humanity and the Consult?

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How does one learn innocence?  How does one teach ignorance?  For to be them is to know them not.  And yet they are the immovable point from the compass of life swings, the measure of all crime and compassion, the rule of all wisdom and folly.  They are the Absolute
Tells us specifically what the Absolute is, and implies it cannot be taught.  It suggests that any search for knowledge/ intellectual approach to the world/ salvation is inevitably going to fail - Dunyain.

Peace has come to Achamian, because of Kellhus (not Esmenet!). He is still tutoring him, but
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...Soon, Achamian realised from time to time, he would have nothing left to give Kellhus - save the Gnosis.
- and Esmenet!
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Which he could not give, of course.  But he found it hard to resist wondering what Kellhus with his godlike intellect would make of it.  Thankfully, the Gnosis was a language for which the Prince possessed no tongue.

Kellhus 'light-heartedly' mocks Cnaiur and Proyas, with a little help from Esmi.  When Cnaiur returns, they laugh at him.

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"The man's a thick-skinned lout," Achamian said crossly.  "Mockery is a gift between friends. A gift.
The Prince whirled.  "Is it?" he cred.  "Or is it an excuse?"
This reminds Akka of his father.  Interesting that Kellhus is now described as 'the Prince'.

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...Backbiting, petty jealousies, resentments, arguments, and third-party arbitrations simply belonged to the market of men.
But with Kellhus, it was different.  Somehow he managed to browse the market without opening his purse.  Almost from the beginning they'd recognised him as the Judge - including Xinemus, who was the titular head of their fire.  No doubt there was an uncertainty about him, a capriciousness appropriate to his brilliance, but these were simply departures from a profound and immovable centre.  Intelligence, as penetrating as any in near or far antiquity.  Compassion, as broad as Inrau's and yet somehow far deeper - a benevolence born of understanding rather than forgiveness, as though he could see through the delinquent rush of thought and passion to the still point of innocence within each soul.  And words!  Analogies that seized reality and burned it from the inside out...
He possessed, Achamian sometimes thought, what the poet Protathis claimed all men should strive for: the hand of Triamis, the intellect of Ajencis, and the heart of Sejenus.
And others thought this as well.

People start turning up to hear Kellhus speak.  Akka questions one of them.
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...And somehow the Schoolman simply knew these people wouldn't go away.
I'm no different, he thought, feeling the perplexing twinge of insights into things already known.  I simply sit closer to the fire...
Their reasons were his reasons.  He knew this.
There grounds were inchoate and innumerable: grief, temptation, remorse, confusion.  They watched out of weariness, out of clandestine hope and fear, out of fascination and delight.  But more than anything, they watched out of necessity.
They watched because they knew something was about to happen.

Kellhus give sermons - the Imprompta (see epigraph!).  He talks about Leweth.  Akka writes downs his words.  Proyas and Martemus are there.

Kellhus describes the difference between seeing and witnessing.
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"...And then we suffer, for we feel the ache for the blessed, the sting of the cursed.  We no longer see, we witness" ...
..."When we witness, we testify, and when we testify we make ourselves responsible for what we see.  And that - that - is what it means to belong"...
"...This world owns you.  You belong, whether you want to or not.  Why do we suffer?  Why do the wretched take their own lives?  Because the world, no matter how cursed, owns us.  Because we belong.

Akka has stopped writing, but Esmi remembers the words.  She is the second pillar of his peace. She tells Akka that Kellhus is a prophet.
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..."How long has it been since you've contacted Atyersus?  Weeks? Months?"
"What is it with -"
"You're waiting, Akka.  You're waiting to see what he becomes."
"Kellhus?"
"She turned her face away, lowered her ear to his heart.  "He's a prophet."

Esmi 'knows' Akka
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It was strange to be known - truly known.  To be awaited rather than anticipated.  To be accepted instead of believed.  To be half another's elaborate habits.  To see oneself continually foreshadowed in another's eyes.
And it was strange to know...
...Details.  Simple enough in isolation, but terrifying and mysterious in their sum.  A mystery that he knew...
Was that not love?  To know, to trust a mystery...

He gets drunk with Xin and Kellhus.  He ends up sleeping with Serwe.  And sees Esmenet watching. He convinces himself it was a dream.  He tells Esmi - she laughs.  He belongs to Esmenet, not the world. 
It seems pretty obvious that Kellhus has manufactured the whole episode.  In an earlier Chapter he tells about using other men's lust for Serwe.

Serwe POV.  She has not seen Cnaiur for four days and has spent these days praying for him to be killed.
Kellhus' face makes each moment a gift.
Back to Cnaiur
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"...What could the outrage of a soft-skinned concubine mean to a man such as him?  Just one more thing to be broken.  She knew the futility, that the animal within would grovel, shriek, would place soothing lips around any man's cock for a moment of mercy - that it would do anything, sate any hunger, to survive.  She'd been enlightened.
Submission.  Truth lay in submission.

Kellhus tells Akka he can see the Mark.  Akka wants him to prove it.  Serwe remembers sleeping with Akka, but seems to thin it was Kellhus - the Gods move as men.

Akka gets his Wathi Doll out.  It has a soul trapped in it.  With the right words one of the few can awaken the doll.
Kellhus of course wakes the doll.
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... something moved from within...
...Serwe understood it was a soul, a self-moving soul...
Interesting choice of words. 

Xinemus is livid, because of the blasphemy.

Cnaiur returns to gather his things.  He is moving to Proyas' camp.  Kellhus will not let him have Serwe.
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Mercy... At last mercy...

The thing called Sarcellus lurks in the darkness.  The smell of the baby Serwe is carrying sickens it.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 07:14:51 pm by TheCulminatingApe »
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2018, 07:16:24 pm »
Quote
...Backbiting, petty jealousies, resentments, arguments, and third-party arbitrations simply belonged to the market of men.
But with Kellhus, it was different.  Somehow he managed to browse the market without opening his purse.  Almost from the beginning they'd recognised him as the Judge - including Xinemus, who was the titular head of their fire.  No doubt there was an uncertainty about him, a capriciousness appropriate to his brilliance, but these were simply departures from a profound and immovable centre.  Intelligence, as penetrating as any in near or far antiquity.  Compassion, as broad as Inrau's and yet somehow far deeper - a benevolence born of understanding rather than forgiveness, as though he could see through the delinquent rush of thought and passion to the still point of innocence within each soul.  And words!  Analogies that seized reality and burned it from the inside out...
He possessed, Achamian sometimes thought, what the poet Protathis claimed all men should strive for: the hand of Triamis, the intellect of Ajencis, and the heart of Sejenus.
And others thought this as well.

If Kellhus is the Judge, with a capital J, does he give Judgement with a capital J - i.e. decide who is or isn't saved/ damned? 
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2018, 07:20:01 pm »
Kellhus give sermons - the Imprompta (see epigraph!).  He talks about Leweth.  Akka writes downs his words.  Proyas and Martemus are there.

If the Imprompta are Kellhus' sermons, should we take them at face value?
Is there a point where Kellhus' fake compassion becomes indistinguishable from the real thing?  If he is playing on people's real emotions, and providing meaning, purpose and definition to lives, are the results genuine, irrespective of the motive?
Does Kellhus actually believe he is a prophet?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 07:23:44 pm by TheCulminatingApe »
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2018, 07:33:24 pm »
Kellhus tells Akka he can see the Mark.  Akka wants him to prove it.  Serwe remembers sleeping with Akka, but seems to thin it was Kellhus - the Gods move as men.

Akka gets his Wathi Doll out.  It has a soul trapped in it.  With the right words one of the few can awaken the doll.
Kellhus of course wakes the doll.
Quote
... something moved from within...
...Serwe understood it was a soul, a self-moving soul...
Interesting choice of words. 

Very weird.  Why is the Wathi Doll a 'self-moving soul' - the supposed endpoint of the Dunyain project?

Quote
How does one learn innocence?  How does one teach ignorance?  For to be them is to know them not.  And yet they are the immovable point from the compass of life swings, the measure of all crime and compassion, the rule of all wisdom and folly.  They are the Absolute
- ANONYMOUS, THE IMPROMPTA

Can a self-moving soul be ignorant? or innocent?  If these are the point from which life swings, can a soul actually be self-moving?  Yet another pointer towards the inadequacies of the Dunyain philosophy.
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

MSJ

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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2018, 08:01:31 pm »
Quote from:  TheCulminatingApe
the Imprompta are Kellhus' sermons, should we take them at face value?
Is there a point where Kellhus' fake compassion becomes indistinguishable from the real thing?  If he is playing on people's real emotions, and providing meaning, purpose and definition to lives, are the results genuine, irrespective of the motive?
Does Kellhus actually believe he is a prophet?

Yes, he does... he is more.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 09:19:45 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2018, 05:54:13 pm »
Kellhus describes the difference between seeing and witnessing.
Quote
"...And then we suffer, for we feel the ache for the blessed, the sting of the cursed.  We no longer see, we witness" ...
..."When we witness, we testify, and when we testify we make ourselves responsible for what we see.  And that - that - is what it means to belong"...
"...This world owns you.  You belong, whether you want to or not.  Why do we suffer?  Why do the wretched take their own lives?  Because the world, no matter how cursed, owns us.  Because we belong.

TELL ME WHAT YOU SEE.  Are people supposed to witness and testify the No-God?
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.