How was the original Great Ordeal structured before being split up in two?

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robizeratul

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« on: December 27, 2018, 05:44:55 pm »
The books have weird pacing, so I am curious how Bakker invisioned it. Anyone know how it should have been>

MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 08:31:33 pm »
Exactly how it was.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2018, 10:16:28 pm »
Exactly how it was.
I'm pretty sure the question was about "The Great Ordeal" the book, though it was called "The Horns of Golgotterath" then. Before being split into two parts - "The Great Ordeal" and "The Unholy Consult".

The actual Great Ordeal (the army) was exactly how it was, yeah.

MSJ

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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2018, 10:44:21 pm »
The question was about the pacing of the book, not about the title. And again, the pacing of the book was exactly how Bakker intended it to be.

Never understood these questions on forums."Is that how "author" intended the ending to be?", or, "Did "author" mean to use this kind of characterization?". Well, yes, yes he did. The book is what it is. Why would you think there was some other intention?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2018, 11:12:21 pm »
Why would you think there was some other intention?
Because "The Aspect-Emperor" was originally intended to be a trilogy, with what we know now as "The Great Ordeal" and "The Unholy Consult" being one book. Its placeholder title was "The Horns of Golgotterath" (which is thematically appropriate, considering how much the words "The Horns" are used as a refrain in TUC; https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArcWords).

Also, there is the title of this thread: "How was the original Great Ordeal structured before being split up in two?" To me, this is a question about structure, of which pacing is a direct consequence.

But yeah, the moment Bakker settled on the splitting, I do think the resulting two books were structured fairly similarly to what we can see in the published versions.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 11:22:49 pm by SmilerLoki »

robizeratul

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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2018, 11:37:51 am »
Yes. I mean does anybody know what stuff was added/removed/changed from the great ordeal and the consult?
 
I remember reading a very interesting thread a while ago. Where someone has read the original manuscript and made a comparison with the finished books. However I can't find it anymore. That made my curious

MSJ

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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2018, 12:53:07 pm »
Fair enough, I think Bakker just picked a reasonable splitting point and went from there. I dont think he changed anything other than that tbh.

ETA: and from the Madness reading of TGO, he had that finished and then started on TUC. So, it might not have been such a dramatic split as just picking point.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 12:57:33 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2018, 06:00:05 pm »
I've described this in detail before but it always seems to have gotten lost in the vilifying of my personality.

Regardless:

- WLW comes out in 2012.
     - Following which Bakker maintains publicly that he is working on *one* draft titled The Unholy Consult.

- I received a draft of something titled The Great Ordeal and I opened that manuscript originally on camera with Wilshire and FB before we recorded the first TSACast.
     - We are notably confused about the title but continue on with our Casting ambitions without my having read TGO or taken notes.

- Two months later (Summer '14), I go spend some time with Bakker after having both read the draft and done line by line edits and overarching thoughts (I always say 23pgs but I think that is literally mundane errors with 5 more pages of plot/narrative/continuity suggestion - none of which is ever fixed in the final edition *because Overlook*).
     - Important: This is the point that he reveals to me that he's been writing two books simultaneously for over a year and a half already and apologized that he couldn't have The Unholy Consult draft ready for me before his submission of *both* drafts (clearly my head exploded at this point thinking that Dagliash was the end of TAE, which I had already spent two months digesting as the end of TAE, TNG presumably bringing the fucking heat).
     - His publishers don't know about the split at this point - and Bakker has talked much about his bad faith move on TPB over time - and thus I'm sworn to secrecy regarding discussing my impressions of TGO "as the last book in a trilogy."

- Shortly after that meeting, he extended me the trust to discuss my impressions of TGO online without discussing the split books but never ends up once speaking publicly about the split until almost Oct '15, after issues with his publisher are resolved. TGO is released Summer '16.
     - I finally saw the draft of TUC August '16 and send many pages of notes back in Sep (which famously again get *Overlooked*), following which Bakker and I sit down again for a post-TUC meeting. At this point the draft has already been looked over once by Overlook.

- TUC is published Summer '17 and Zaudunyanicon (arguably the last instance of any news) happens August '17.

As per what's in the drafts I saw at those times vs. what ended up in the books, there isn't really much difference. I know that in some instances continuity/pacing inconsistencies I noted in both (and Wilshire and MG noticed in TUC) were ignored by the outsourced Overlook editor (Bakker had told us at Zaudunyanicon that Overlook hired an outside contractor to edit TGO/TUC after the departure of Bakker's familiar Overlook editor circa. beginning of year 2015 - apparently unrelated to Bakker's sudden reappearance to touch base with the publisher).

In the Zaudunyanicon/Nascenti threads, I know a few of us draft readers discussed the cut Seswatha parts from TGO and TUC (the lengthier versions were definitely cut from TUC) as well as pacing issues with the Ordeal/Scalded/Proyas Chapter early on (which included a big chunk of narrative describing Kellhus/the Mandate's plan to have certain Mandati not eat the Meat and starve themselves but then got confused by the editor with the passages later regarding Zsoronga belonging to a congregation of those don't eat the Scalded).

This having been the longest post I've written in almost two years, I'll leave it at that for now (and for fuck sakes are the forum functions fucked up).

Truth be told, the publications of TGO/TUC were riddled with complications. Which as we know is a damn shame. But ultimately, I think Bakker waiting so long to explain to fans *the split* was the first and possibly inevitably fatal blow regarding execution and reception.

EDIT: Also, final thought for now, as MSJ said, Bakker was public about the arbitrariness of the splits since an interview with Pat's Fantasy Hotlist circa. TJE. He treats TAE as one book and just makes random "snips" that he thinks worked. I think he did quite well with TGO and I'm of the opinion that WLW and TGO are actually two halves of one book mirroring TWP. TUC itself almost perfectly mimes TTT without the TGO portion.

Again, it all comes back to Bakker probably unintentionally misleading reader expectations.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 06:06:34 pm by Madness »
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robizeratul

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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2018, 02:40:11 pm »
Thanks a lot man! very insightful post!
 
I am rereading the series and I was curious about some "hidden" background stuff. I used the search function but there are so many posts I can't find them...I Remember the mandate thinking they are Seswatha and solving certain pacing issues, I didn't know about the not eating sranc plan.
 
Very interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing!