What is the Eärwan Soul?

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sciborg2

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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 10:29:16 pm »
Heh something like that. It struck me that his thoughts on the illusory "I" match up well enough with some of the ideas we've had regarding identity/individuality as what allows for Damnation...and, I suppose, Salvation of sorts...

Also want to say I think Hegel is important, both to the Idealist metaphysics and potentially to the nature of sorcery. Sadly I'm unfamiliar with his works beyond just some cursory commentary that crossed my path.

I think that is very likely.  I have to plead ignorance as well and I'm not sure I have the intellect to read him direct.  I should probably look up some kind of introduction to Hegel, perhaps, or something like that.

I suspect his thesis, antithesis, synthesis is the key to the Meta-Gnosis. I can see each piece further clarifying the intention of the sorcerer towards the world.
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2018, 10:45:39 pm »
I suspect his thesis, antithesis, synthesis is the key to the Meta-Gnosis. I can see each piece further clarifying the intention of the sorcerer towards the world.

Hmm, while logical, perhaps that wasn't really Hegel's idea?

Quote
According to Mueller, the attribution of this tripartite dialectic to Hegel is the result of "inept reading" and simplistic translations which do not take into account the genesis of Hegel's terms:

Hegel's greatness is as indisputable as his obscurity. The matter is due to his peculiar terminology and style; they are undoubtedly involved and complicated, and seem excessively abstract. These linguistic troubles, in turn, have given rise to legends which are like perverse and magic spectacles - once you wear them, the text simply vanishes. Theodor Haering's monumental and standard work has for the first time cleared up the linguistic problem. By carefully analyzing every sentence from his early writings, which were published only in this century, he has shown how Hegel's terminology evolved - though it was complete when he began to publish. Hegel's contemporaries were immediately baffled, because what was clear to him was not clear to his readers, who were not initiated into the genesis of his terms.

An example of how a legend can grow on inept reading is this: Translate "Begriff" by "concept," "Vernunft" by "reason" and "Wissenschaft" by "science" – and they are all good dictionary translations – and you have transformed the great critic of rationalism and irrationalism into a ridiculous champion of an absurd pan-logistic rationalism and scientism.

The most vexing and devastating Hegel legend is that everything is thought in "thesis, antithesis, and synthesis."

From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis (not exactly the most reliable place, though).
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2018, 11:21:52 pm »
I suspect his thesis, antithesis, synthesis is the key to the Meta-Gnosis. I can see each piece further clarifying the intention of the sorcerer towards the world.

Hmm, while logical, perhaps that wasn't really Hegel's idea?

Quote
According to Mueller, the attribution of this tripartite dialectic to Hegel is the result of "inept reading" and simplistic translations which do not take into account the genesis of Hegel's terms:

Hegel's greatness is as indisputable as his obscurity. The matter is due to his peculiar terminology and style; they are undoubtedly involved and complicated, and seem excessively abstract. These linguistic troubles, in turn, have given rise to legends which are like perverse and magic spectacles - once you wear them, the text simply vanishes. Theodor Haering's monumental and standard work has for the first time cleared up the linguistic problem. By carefully analyzing every sentence from his early writings, which were published only in this century, he has shown how Hegel's terminology evolved - though it was complete when he began to publish. Hegel's contemporaries were immediately baffled, because what was clear to him was not clear to his readers, who were not initiated into the genesis of his terms.

An example of how a legend can grow on inept reading is this: Translate "Begriff" by "concept," "Vernunft" by "reason" and "Wissenschaft" by "science" – and they are all good dictionary translations – and you have transformed the great critic of rationalism and irrationalism into a ridiculous champion of an absurd pan-logistic rationalism and scientism.

The most vexing and devastating Hegel legend is that everything is thought in "thesis, antithesis, and synthesis."

From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis (not exactly the most reliable place, though).

Ah...I mean I didn't look too deeply at the concepts. I was thinking that the first two parts would help clarify a sorcerer's meaning - you note something you wish to intend in a certain metaphysical scheme, but also solidify this intent by a sort of negation in the "anti-thesis".

Not saying this completely describes sorcery, but there are other parts of Hegel that seem to correspond to Bakker's ideas so when I saw this tripartite lingual structure it jumped out at me.
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2018, 11:28:25 pm »
Ah...I mean I didn't look too deeply at the concepts. I was thinking that the first two parts would help clarify a sorcerer's meaning - you note something you wish to intend in a certain metaphysical scheme, but also solidify this intent by a sort of negation in the "anti-thesis".

Not saying this completely describes sorcery, but there are other parts of Hegel that seem to correspond to Bakker's ideas so when I saw this tripartite lingual structure it jumped out at me.

Yeah, I mean, I'd find it hard to believe that Bakker didn't read some amount of Hegel or something derivative thereof honestly.

I was just point out, not that the theory seems bad, but that it seems it wasn't really Hegels.  Meaningless in the short-term, but if we want to look more deeply into it, it seems Hegel isn't where that is, per se.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2018, 06:23:51 pm »
Addendum:

Time and the Soul on Eärwa

So, something interesting came up in discussion.  That is, the lingering question of how it could be that Yatwer, eternal, can see "all of time" yet, cannot see the failure of the White-Luck Warrior.  Or of Sorweel.  In what manner can we reconcile the following facts:

First, Yatwer (and so the rest of the Hundred) are Eternal, that is, they are outside of time.  They do not age and they are no subject to the laws of time.  That is, Yatwer can "experiance" all time which She exists in.  This would be how She can "see" the White-Luck Warrior kill Kellhus.  We shall return to this point soon.

Next, despite the fact that Yatwer sees all of time, there are two (at least two) very specific things that Yatwer (et. al.) cannot see.  That is, the No-God, and Ark.  By extension, this includes Kelmomas.

Third, despite Kelmomas being unseen, he is still part of the same time as Yatwer.

Fourth, that all of time is already "written."  That is, all things that will happen have already happened.

So, we are left to ask the following: if Yatwer can "see" all of time, at least all of "time" in which Yatwer exists, then how is it the case that Yatwer cannot see little Kel, or at least, see little Kel's influence on things She can see?

To simplify our task, we can simply take for granted that the No-God is simply outside of what Yatwer can perceive.  We need to burden ourselves with an explanation of this fact at this moment (in fact, we will return to it at the end).  What we do need to ask though is what does this make of what Yatwer does see?  In other words, if time includes the No-God, which it must, as the No-God indeed happens, then what is it that Yatwer saw, which did not include the No-God?

Let me attempt a sort of visual example:
If we liken all of time, that is, everything that ever happens in and on Eärwa as a book, we can imagine, for example, the "passage" of the following progression: 1,2,3,4.  What do I mean here?  Well, if we continue the analogy of "a book" then, we can have pare 1, which begets page 2, and then page 3 and so on.  Each page builds upon the previous page.  This is to liken the passage of time as a linear progression, toward whatever the future is.  The key on Eärwa, of course, is that the whole book has already been written.  That is, all pages are written.  In a manner of thinking about it, then the whole book, that is, the litany of all things that have happened, is already written or set, as it were.

We are left then, to ask, how can it be that Yatwer can see all of time, that is, see the whole book, and yet not see the failure of the White-Luck Warrior?  It would be no different than, us, the readers, being able to read the whole series, yet, not be able to see the ending.  No, something else must be happening.

What I propose, of course, is that Yawer (et. al.) cannot "see" all of time.  They cannot "read the book" of all time.  What Yatwer actually does is follow the lines of causal, experiential data and in doing so, extrapolates the seemingly deterministic end.  This is not "reading the book" however, because were it, there would be clear points at which the intercession of the No-God would clearly be changing things from what Yatwer would expect.  So, what seems must be the case is that Yatwer only imagines Herself to be reading the book.  In reality, what is actually being done is intuiting the outcome of System: Eärwa, based off it's previously known (i.e. "beginning") state.  This works, only insofar as Eärwa is a closed system.  But Eärwa is not closed: it was breached by Ark.

This is similar to how Moënghus the Elder, imagined Eärwa closed and able to be rendered predictable.  Except he was wrong.  Now, the Hundred have perspectives well beyond what Moënghus could muster, being a-temporal and nearly omnipresent.  But they too are wrong to assume that this part is the whole.  While the Hundred are outside of time, they are not truly Eternal, since they were born, so shall they die.  And while they are nearly everywhere, they are not everywhere and so there are gaps in what they can "see."  The Ark is just one notable instance of this.  However, the Hundred, perceptually, are blind to what they are blind to.  So they have no but to imagine that the part they intuit, that is "see," is the whole, the whole whole.

So, then time as perceived by the Hundred is not time as it is on Eärwa.  Time, as percieved is time as it "should be" were it to follow Eärwan "laws" (yes, even sorcery, as a law outside of "natural law") and proceed accordingly.  But that Hundred don't "see" this, so much as they simply intuit it.  In a similar manner to how a bird tracks prey.  It doesn't think, or calculate, it just does what it knows it needs to do.  Yatwer is not a consciousness in an anthropomorphic way.  This is why the Mutilated even say to Kellhus that the Hundred couldn't have known of their absence, they could only intuit it.  Considering though, that the Hundred don't have actual eyes, this "intuition" is what to them is "seeing."

I am thinking that possibly the whole reason why the No-God even works at all is because, like the soul is a ledger, so is "time" on Earwa.  It has dimension.  So the god's can "see" it all, because they can look back and forth along the "line."  But the No-God, as a sort of singularity, collapses this dimensionality.  So, under the No-God there is no past, in any discernible, ledger-like way, there is only the present, devoid of any connection with what was done, or will be done.  In this way, it doesn't matter what you do, or did, because in the next moment, it's all new and nothing bears any connection with what was before.  You are, in a way, born new, every moment upon every moment.  This is the union of Subject and Object.  Subjectively you are nothing but an Object, bereft of greater consequence.  Maybe this is why souled things can't be born, because soul, as the signifier of "that which animates," cannot be, so you are born without the "animator," that is, just an object.

Of course, then we are left to ask how is it that soulless things can be born at all.  The answer is, I guess, that since that is their nature, it does no harm for them, as they are naturally already in that state of already being just Object.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2018, 04:42:30 am »
So Yatwer sees everything that has happened in the sense of a Block Universe...of sorts. But the No God represents the end of that sight, IIRC Bakker said the Hundred are all getting fucked by Alzheimers or some such.

Of course this would suggest Yatwer *never* saw an accurate picture, just an accurate enough picture to presume everything flowed in the "currents of Causality" as the Godhand would say.

It makes me think of the Eternal, Time Transcendent torment shown by the Inverse Fire...which always happens to be different each time you look at it.

I can't help but feel that if one view of Time is the correct one it's the Present, the Now, and the Eternal is in some [way] illusory...
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