The World / The Outside / Gods / Progenitors etc...

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hocknose

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« on: November 08, 2018, 03:51:17 pm »
OK I finished the books a while ago but there is something that has bugged me and am trying to get clear in my head...

Does the Outside exist all through the universe, its not just localized to the Earwa world?
If yes to above then the the Hundred Gods ( Ajokli, Yatwer etc...) must exist all through the universe also?
So if a soul dies on another planet then their soul will also go to damnation, the same outside that the souls from Earwa go to?
Therefore damnation is full of souls from all over the universe?
So the Progenitors experienced (via inverse) fire the same damnation that souls from Earwa do?
So what makes the planet that Earwa is on so special?

Sorry for my braindump questions...

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 04:09:26 pm »
It's precisely because of those questions I think that the Hundred Gods are exclusively human Gods that could have only emerged in Earwa. Concerning the latter, I actually asked Bakker directly about it. Here's the quote:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
Quote from: SmilerloLoki
Thank you for taking the time and answering our questions! Mine is as follows:

Are topoi and anarcane grounds connected to Earwa being the Promised World?
Thank you, SmilerLoki. Only insofar as they are isolated, surrounded by arcane grounds. The Inchoroi homeworld, for instance, is entirely anarcane.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl24077/

His answer makes me think that the mixture of different grounds (arcane, anarcane, topoi) in Earwa is what makes it special. The relationship between Earwa and the Outside is more complex than the Outside's relationships with other worlds.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 05:05:43 pm by SmilerLoki »

H

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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 04:54:33 pm »
OK I finished the books a while ago but there is something that has bugged me and am trying to get clear in my head...

Does the Outside exist all through the universe, its not just localized to the Earwa world?

This is a very good question and one that really cuts down into what an Eärwan soul actually is.  I'd invite you to read my recent topic in this subform but it is overly wordy,so I will attempt to condense it's broad implications down to just address your question.

The answer, simply, is yes.  But the answer is also, simply no.  Because the Outside is not a "place" in the spatial sense.  The Outside is plausibly an inter-psychic place.  That is to say, it is a place that connects "souled" things and exists only in the space of those souled things.  So, the Outside is everywhere, as it is no where.  So, this is why it cannot be run from, because it is a part of you and you bring it with you where ever you go.

If yes to above then the the Hundred Gods ( Ajokli, Yatwer etc...) must exist all through the universe also?

No, not really.  I've hypothesized that each "world" is something of an "island" in The Void.  As an inter-subjective space though, everywhere has a "space" that is akin to the Outside, but as an inter-subjective space each is built subjectively.  So, on Eärwa, the Outside has it's particular character, as the Outside in other places will havee a different one.  What isn't different is The Cubit, because that is like a law of physics in Bakker's universe.  So, sins are sin everywhere, but the character of the resultant Outside is not because that is built from the subjective framework of those that make up the inter-subjective space.

I'll field the other questions soon, just a little low on time at the moment.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 05:30:53 pm »
OK I finished the books a while ago but there is something that has bugged me and am trying to get clear in my head...

Does the Outside exist all through the universe, its not just localized to the Earwa world?
If yes to above then the the Hundred Gods ( Ajokli, Yatwer etc...) must exist all through the universe also?
So if a soul dies on another planet then their soul will also go to damnation, the same outside that the souls from Earwa go to?
Therefore damnation is full of souls from all over the universe?
So the Progenitors experienced (via inverse) fire the same damnation that souls from Earwa do?
So what makes the planet that Earwa is on so special?

Sorry for my braindump questions...
1. Yes the Outside exists everywhere
2. I would assume that the Gods are the same, though specific incarnations/aesthetic representations might differ I suppose. I also like H's take on this though.
3. Presumably yes. Keep in mind the premise is that "meaning" etc. is objective and universal, so everybody probably faces the same sort of damnation.
4. As Smilerloki said it probably has something to do with arcane/anarcane. Additionally, see this post:
http://forum.three-seas.com/posts/9463
Apparently Anarcane Ground is ground where the God is dreaming lucidly, i.e. has focused its attention. Since Eärwa is mostly arcane, it might be the place in the universe where the God is least aware of what's going on.

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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2018, 06:49:22 pm »
So if a soul dies on another planet then their soul will also go to damnation, the same outside that the souls from Earwa go to?

Yes, but no.  It's the same, as in it's the same process, but it's not the same place as in the same physical space.  The Outside is not a physical place.  In fact, it's likely all places as it is no place at all.  That is to say, it's everywhere and no particular place.  So, if you were born on planet X, died on planet Y, I don't think you'd find people damned on plant Z there.  In fact, I'd guess if you were born on planet X and died on Y, you be damned on the Outside of planet Y.  Which actually explains why the Prgenitors want a world where they can close things off.

So the Progenitors experienced (via inverse) fire the same damnation that souls from Earwa do?

Practically the same.  Not the same in matter of fact.

So what makes the planet that Earwa is on so special?

Well, I think SL answered that pretty well above.  But I think it has to do with the fact that because Eärwa has arcane ground meaning is malleable to a degree which it is not on other planets/places.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

hocknose

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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 07:15:19 pm »
Thank you all for your responses, makes sense.

The way I was imagining it before was like the Chaos gods of the Warhammer universe. I guess that's a bit simplistic for a Bakker novel 😋

H

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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2018, 07:35:42 pm »
Thank you all for your responses, makes sense.

The way I was imagining it before was like the Chaos gods of the Warhammer universe. I guess that's a bit simplistic for a Bakker novel 😋

As a Warhammer player myself, I often defaulted to the position in earlier times, before TGO and TUC, specifically (even WLW).  But indeed, such ideas are not the kind Bakker was aiming at.  More like the Gnostic Pleroma, which is something that Warhammer cannon never really approaches, being far, far more concrete than the completely abstract idea that Bakker presents.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2018, 07:58:13 pm »
As a Warhammer player myself, I often defaulted to the position in earlier times, before TGO and TUC, specifically (even WLW).  But indeed, such ideas are not the kind Bakker was aiming at.  More like the Gnostic Pleroma, which is something that Warhammer cannon never really approaches, being far, far more concrete than the completely abstract idea that Bakker presents.
Well, you were lucky, then! I was completely sure the Gods are just stories and don't actually exist until the White-Luck Warrior and Psatma were shown to draw very real power from Yatwer.

H

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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 08:15:39 pm »
As a Warhammer player myself, I often defaulted to the position in earlier times, before TGO and TUC, specifically (even WLW).  But indeed, such ideas are not the kind Bakker was aiming at.  More like the Gnostic Pleroma, which is something that Warhammer cannon never really approaches, being far, far more concrete than the completely abstract idea that Bakker presents.
Well, you were lucky, then! I was completely sure the Gods are just stories and don't actually exist until the White-Luck Warrior and Psatma were shown to draw very real power from Yatwer.

Well, in PoN I definitely felt that way, that the God weren't real, at least no manifestly so.  As of TJE and WLW though, I certainly had to change course.  It's kind of hard to know for sure when I was convinced of what though, it was kind of a long time ago now...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 08:44:22 pm »
As a Warhammer player myself, I often defaulted to the position in earlier times, before TGO and TUC, specifically (even WLW).  But indeed, such ideas are not the kind Bakker was aiming at.  More like the Gnostic Pleroma, which is something that Warhammer cannon never really approaches, being far, far more concrete than the completely abstract idea that Bakker presents.
Well, you were lucky, then! I was completely sure the Gods are just stories and don't actually exist until the White-Luck Warrior and Psatma were shown to draw very real power from Yatwer.
Same here. At first I even found it weird and jarring but now I totally love it.

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 03:34:29 pm »
OK I finished the books a while ago but there is something that has bugged me and am trying to get clear in my head...

Does the Outside exist all through the universe, its not just localized to the Earwa world?
If yes to above then the the Hundred Gods ( Ajokli, Yatwer etc...) must exist all through the universe also?
So if a soul dies on another planet then their soul will also go to damnation, the same outside that the souls from Earwa go to?
Therefore damnation is full of souls from all over the universe?
So the Progenitors experienced (via inverse) fire the same damnation that souls from Earwa do?
So what makes the planet that Earwa is on so special?

Sorry for my braindump questions...
I'm late to the party, but welcome to the forum :D

Those are ... complex questions with vague and confusing answers lol. Though I think those here laid out a couple points of view.
Personally, I think there is one outside that exists everywhere from the perspective of those Inside. Yatwer, Ajokli, et al are persistent throughout, and they are the Gods the Inchoroi have been running from for millennia.
One of the other conditions of possibility.