The Secret (Inner) Life of Bees?

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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2018, 07:57:49 pm »
  So, I don't really know what I am saying, really.
To me its like asking 'can we build a lightbulb' by looking at a picture ... but without knowing what electricity is. Sure, you can construct the vacuum chamber and the magnesium(?) filament, but if you have no concept of how the lightbulb actually makes light, its going to be real unlikely that it'll light up when you're 'done'.

Could we make all the biological equivalent structures... lets assume yes. But if we don't know the source of consciousness, it seems rather unlikely that it'll just happen spontaneously once we're done building the box.

Right, I mean, in the rest of the quoted post, I asked "But, "Soul" aside, without knowing what consciousness actually is, the issue of conveyance would seem to be missing the fundamental point, though, right?"

So, I mean, I am biased, because someone who is educated in psychology and generally seeing things through a lens of something like psychodynamic forces, I have doubts about all the looking done at making AI we could ever really fear, or consider Intelligence, when we don't even know what "intelligence" even is, let along how it is formulated.

And simply attempting to "vivisect" the brain, via things like neuroscience is likely to miss the "big picture" of the totality of the system, which might well be what consciousness actually is...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2018, 09:28:06 pm »
Well if we have a soul I figure most (all?) chances on answering questions like "can you upload your self" would be off. But we could ask again why the structure of nervous system (or even entire body) is the way it is, and what makes us think we a different structure would "catch" consciousness?

But computationalists who support mind uploading, from what I understand, believe all facts are physical facts. [Their disbelief in souls is the motivation for uploading] But they uplift the position of structure, or matter's "Form" as Aristotle would say. Or rather it might be better to say they privilege processes, and claim that a complete enough simulation will provide then necessary duplication of said processes.

But the processes in the physical world would be the workings of the Turing Machine, the stuff of Frogger - CPUs, Registers, etc...hardly the stuff of cells aka the stuff of Frog.

But, "Soul" aside, without knowing what consciousness actually is, the issue of conveyance would seem to be missing the fundamental point, though, right?

I mean, it's very hard to say whether or not, if you built something with all the same biological systems with "equivalent" mechanical ones, would that mechanical thing be capable of consciousness?  I can't see a manner to devise a plausible answer for no and yet I still, at some level, doubt if it could be done.  Yet, I'm not really advocating for a soul, per se.  So, I don't really know what I am saying, really.

Ah sorry yeah I am not saying it is impossible to make synthetic entities (at least "synthetic" in the sense of being made of in-organic compounds).

I agree that it may be possible to reproduce the significant structures that make us conscious entities, and it is also possible that the relevant structures may not completely resemble our own bodies. But I doubt that anything so wholly different for us, like a Turing Machine, is any more capable of preserving our conscious selves than a car engine.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 09:31:22 pm by sciborg2 »
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« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2018, 09:49:52 pm »
Ah sorry yeah I am not saying it is impossible to make synthetic entities (at least "synthetic" in the sense of being made of in-organic compounds).

I agree that it may be possible to reproduce the significant structures that make us conscious entities, and it is also possible that the relevant structures may not completely resemble our own bodies. But I doubt that anything so wholly different for us, like a Turing Machine, is any more capable of preserving our conscious selves than a car engine.

Right, I'd definitely agree there.  The very "programmed" nature of the machine is likely completely ill-suited, perhaps even particularly so, to house consciousness.  I'd think this might be because, consciousness is likely not just the "current data content of the brain."  Because consciousness is likely born of the system of sensory perception wedded with the brain and it's data.  Consciousness might be in the loop between all those things, or the loop might well be consciousness.

At least something like that.  I don't know if anyone is really studying that, because I don't know if you really can, due to it's scope.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2018, 09:57:49 pm »
Ah sorry yeah I am not saying it is impossible to make synthetic entities (at least "synthetic" in the sense of being made of in-organic compounds).

I agree that it may be possible to reproduce the significant structures that make us conscious entities, and it is also possible that the relevant structures may not completely resemble our own bodies. But I doubt that anything so wholly different for us, like a Turing Machine, is any more capable of preserving our conscious selves than a car engine.

Right, I'd definitely agree there.  The very "programmed" nature of the machine is likely completely ill-suited, perhaps even particularly so, to house consciousness.  I'd think this might be because, consciousness is likely not just the "current data content of the brain."  Because consciousness is likely born of the system of sensory perception wedded with the brain and it's data.  Consciousness might be in the loop between all those things, or the loop might well be consciousness.

At least something like that.  I don't know if anyone is really studying that, because I don't know if you really can, due to it's scope.

Yeah, I mean it gets into the Problem of Other Minds - barring telepathy I can only assert Cogito Ergo Sum for myself, yet I would be aghast at denying my fellow humans the "rights of sentient beings" I feel I intrinsically deserve.

If we can get a good enough understanding of the relevant correlates that are necessary & sufficient for consciousness it seems wrong, to me, to deny "rights of sentient beings" to a synthetic being crafted to utilize those correlates. Whether the correlates "catch" a soul, filter the One Consciousness, or produce the consciousness necessary would be irrelevant to the fact that the structures are matching.

To give an example, the kind of machine minds I believe Anirban Bandyopadhyay is (was?) working on:

https://www.closertotruth.com/series/can-consciousness-be-non-biological-part-1#video-48847
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2018, 10:59:46 pm »
Yeah, I mean it gets into the Problem of Other Minds - barring telepathy I can only assert Cogito Ergo Sum for myself, yet I would be aghast at denying my fellow humans the "rights of sentient beings" I feel I intrinsically deserve.

If we can get a good enough understanding of the relevant correlates that are necessary & sufficient for consciousness it seems wrong, to me, to deny "rights of sentient beings" to a synthetic being crafted to utilize those correlates. Whether the correlates "catch" a soul, filter the One Consciousness, or produce the consciousness necessary would be irrelevant to the fact that the structures are matching.

To give an example, the kind of machine minds I believe Anirban Bandyopadhyay is (was?) working on:

https://www.closertotruth.com/series/can-consciousness-be-non-biological-part-1#video-48847

Hmmm, I couldn't really follow what he was saying, because if everything is a vibration caused by a vibration, doesn't that boil down to flat Materialism?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2018, 11:40:03 pm »
Yeah, I mean it gets into the Problem of Other Minds - barring telepathy I can only assert Cogito Ergo Sum for myself, yet I would be aghast at denying my fellow humans the "rights of sentient beings" I feel I intrinsically deserve.

If we can get a good enough understanding of the relevant correlates that are necessary & sufficient for consciousness it seems wrong, to me, to deny "rights of sentient beings" to a synthetic being crafted to utilize those correlates. Whether the correlates "catch" a soul, filter the One Consciousness, or produce the consciousness necessary would be irrelevant to the fact that the structures are matching.

To give an example, the kind of machine minds I believe Anirban Bandyopadhyay is (was?) working on:

https://www.closertotruth.com/series/can-consciousness-be-non-biological-part-1#video-48847

Hmmm, I couldn't really follow what he was saying, because if everything is a vibration caused by a vibration, doesn't that boil down to flat Materialism?

I got the feeling he's metaphysically neutral and focused on structure but maybe I'm wrong about that.
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2018, 12:40:16 pm »
I got the feeling he's metaphysically neutral and focused on structure but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Yeah, that's likely.  The more I thought about it, I guess there is a lot of "room" in the concept of whatever he might term a "vibration."
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira