More stuff on the Simulation Hypothesis,,,

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sciborg2

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« on: December 10, 2018, 03:00:49 am »
Elon Musk says we may live in a simulation. Here's how we might tell if he's right.

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Scientists are looking for ways to put this mind-bending idea to the test.

Marcus Noack, a computational physicist at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab with a keen interest in the simulation hypothesis, sees problems with these attempts to outsmart the Matrix. For instance, Campbell assumes that a simulation would be for our benefit only, “but what if the simulator does not simulate us just for us, but rather to observe how everything plays out?” And Noack notes that Beane’s approach would come up empty if the lattice of reality is too fine for us to detect — or if the wily simulators have built in systems to defeat any test we might run.

The bottom line, Noack says, is that it’s impossible to test the simulation hypothesis as a whole. The best we can do is explore a “limited neighborhood” of notions about how the simulation might work, and hope that the designers are too lazy or too indifferent to prevent us from discovering their handiwork.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2018, 03:56:35 pm »
Ha, this was not a good article to share with me as for a time now, I've been a paranoid spiritualist to some extent. I have my "beliefs", but at times I find myself looking around wondering who is fucking with me ... good stuff.
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2018, 05:11:47 pm »
Ha, this was not a good article to share with me as for a time now, I've been a paranoid spiritualist to some extent. I have my "beliefs", but at times I find myself looking around wondering who is fucking with me ... good stuff.

In either case, isn't the answer "the universe?"
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 05:42:25 pm »
Ha, this was not a good article to share with me as for a time now, I've been a paranoid spiritualist to some extent. I have my "beliefs", but at times I find myself looking around wondering who is fucking with me ... good stuff.

In either case, isn't the answer "the universe?"

Yes. I forget, what is the universe?
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2018, 05:53:02 pm »
Yes. I forget, what is the universe?

Everything.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2018, 07:24:51 pm »
What accounts for the sense of self. If it's not a soul, what is making me aware I'm in this particular body. Seems like this phenomena of identity/self awareness would be much harder to pull off by lower intelligent ( a simulation creator ) design than emerging from evolution. If there's no god/no soul, I find it likelier awareness has emerged from evolution, not from "someone else". If we are in a simulation created by lower intelligence, than I would buy we're captives in it more than we're created by it - though could be we willingly playing a game whereby we would not be allowed to bring our history with us.
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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2018, 08:32:55 pm »
What accounts for the sense of self. If it's not a soul, what is making me aware I'm in this particular body. Seems like this phenomena of identity/self awareness would be much harder to pull off by lower intelligent ( a simulation creator ) design than emerging from evolution. If there's no god/no soul, I find it likelier awareness has emerged from evolution, not from "someone else". If we are in a simulation created by lower intelligence, than I would buy we're captives in it more than we're created by it - though could be we willingly playing a game whereby we would not be allowed to bring our history with us.

Why is it necessary that a sense of self be meta-physical?  Why can't it be a result of how our brain processes information through our senses.  Again, research has shown that consciousness it's always what we think of it as, in the sense of a "prime mover."  Many processes and decisions arise before consciousness and we are only "aware" of them later.

Again, if we are in a simulation, then we are in a simulation.  The universe conspiring isn't contingent on things being a simulation or not.  It could "be the case" in either case, so don't sweat it.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2018, 08:56:16 pm »
What accounts for the sense of self. If it's not a soul, what is making me aware I'm in this particular body. Seems like this phenomena of identity/self awareness would be much harder to pull off by lower intelligent ( a simulation creator ) design than emerging from evolution. If there's no god/no soul, I find it likelier awareness has emerged from evolution, not from "someone else". If we are in a simulation created by lower intelligence, than I would buy we're captives in it more than we're created by it - though could be we willingly playing a game whereby we would not be allowed to bring our history with us.

Why is it necessary that a sense of self be meta-physical?  Why can't it be a result of how our brain processes information through our senses.  Again, research has shown that consciousness it's always what we think of it as, in the sense of a "prime mover."  Many processes and decisions arise before consciousness and we are only "aware" of them later.

Again, if we are in a simulation, then we are in a simulation.  The universe conspiring isn't contingent on things being a simulation or not.  It could "be the case" in either case, so don't sweat it.

Don't think I said it has to be meta-physical, just that if it's not then I'm prone to put my chips on evolution than someone else cooking up this experience. Of course I don't know, just guessing. You're right, all 3 scenarios could still involve simulation. I'll try not to sweat it, but the thought of a thousand people "enjoying" watching my life from a higher dimensional movie theater is a bit unnerving if not out right embarrassing  ;)
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2018, 09:08:50 pm »
Don't think I said it has to be meta-physical, just that if it's not then I'm prone to put my chips on evolution than someone else cooking up this experience. Of course I don't know, just guessing. You're right, all 3 scenarios could still involve simulation. I'll try not to sweat it, but the thought of a thousand people "enjoying" watching my life from a higher dimensional movie theater is a bit unnerving if not out right embarrassing  ;)

Right, I just meant there isn't anything to awareness that necessitates a soul.  So, no real need to add it if we don't need to.  If it helps us to though, then that works.

Simulation or not, I think you see the call to transcendentalism right there though.  Call it God, or interdimentional movie viewers, but there is the reasoning right there to be the best you that you can be.  Be the best TaoHorror possible in the "Ballad of TaoHorror."
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 06:24:52 pm »
If you want Simulation + Soul see the Peer-to-Peer Hypothesis thread.  ;)

On decisions made before we are aware of them...this is more controversial as I recall some writing on it comes down to certain interpretations. Not to mention what a 'decision" is. IIRC even Dennet was critical of this sort of research but that may have been just the original Libet stuff everyone quotes.

As to everyone watching you, and your soul (whatever that is) being caught let me just quote the great Grant Morrison:

"You've become lost in game disguised as Everything. Try to remember."
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sciborg2

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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2018, 02:08:30 am »
Another take on "spiritual" simulation, would make a cool RPG:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Simulism/comments/6tgyvv/this_is_how_i_understand_reality/

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I think that our universe is a closed, accidental simulation inside of an endless nesting of yet to be fully secured universes; but, even if we all die and even if some deeper layer shuts off, we will be found and helped eventually.

Understanding what this means requires understanding what I think reality as a whole looks like, which can be built from three rules.

    Rule number one is that every conscious being exists as and by way of the ongoing, patterned operation of a substrate of some sort within a universe of some sort.

    Rule number two is that every universe exists as and by way of the ongoing, patterned operation of a substrate of some sort within a universe of some sort.

    Rule number three is that every ongoing, patterned operation is necessarily younger, slower, and smaller than the ongoing, patterned operation within which it is operating.

Basically, every mind is a simulation, every universe is a simulation, and looking outward through the layers will reveal ever older, ever greater simulations. Technically, rule one is just a specific case of rule two, and rule three is just a consequence of rule two. Also, I would like to point out that rule two necessarily generates an infinite regress, and, oddly enough, this is simpler than having a "base reality" at a random point. Getting rid of the infinite regress requires adding an ex nihilo rule, which would arbitrarily split existence into stuff that requires a substrate and stuff that does not. So, if someone did feel like using Occam's razor, it would actually advise that the idea of everything from nothing unnecessarily complicates the picture.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2018, 03:09:38 am »
Thanks, Sci - good to know I'm ( not the only one ) crazy. We don't know the truth, but if we're being honest ( i.e. sport the courage to acknowledge ), there is some very suspicious stuff going on that seems more than just "science hasn't gotten around to it". I think these thoughts/discussions on realty as simulation stems from this. We can only work backwards to discover as we're already in "it" not knowing what "it" is. So while it may seem like it's no different from ancient cultures cooking up explanations for phenomena they couldn't explain, we have no other choice but to pursue that same avenue if we're going to break new ground as our current path of scientific discovery seems to be slowing up fast. Literature and philosophy have to jump in to help out ( and are doing so intentionally or not ). As Hamed is essentially saying it's time to move along. We need to share more of our perceptions/individual experiences to generate new directions for science as it's possible we all have private experiences no one else has had.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 03:11:12 am by TaoHorror »
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sciborg2

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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2018, 03:34:32 am »
It is an interesting take --> I found the idea that there's no bottom a cool idea.

From a philosophical perspective tho I don't think what he's saying is possible, as no bottom means each simulation "clock" depends on layer(s) underneath it having a processor marking the higher layer(s) "animation time".

This leads to an infinite regress of the present moment, rather than one of causal chains stretching into the past...interestingly enough this issue of causation in the present moment is mirroring an old proof of God Aquinas wrote...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 03:38:22 am by sciborg2 »
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2018, 03:39:14 pm »
It is an interesting take --> I found the idea that there's no bottom a cool idea.

Yeah, it is cool, I think these cats are on to something - that said if infinity is real, then there is no bottom and any/all contemplation on reality will have to include bottomlessness.

From a philosophical perspective tho I don't think what he's saying is possible, as no bottom means each simulation "clock" depends on layer(s) underneath it having a processor marking the higher layer(s) "animation time".

Nothing/philosophy has been able to reckon infinity - math has done the best job of it with estimation and rounding. The philosophy of physics is coming up with some cool stuff, but not there yet.

This leads to an infinite regress of the present moment, rather than one of causal chains stretching into the past...interestingly enough this issue of causation in the present moment is mirroring an old proof of God Aquinas wrote...

I'm not well read, I'll have to dig into Aquinas on this.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2018, 06:13:01 pm »
I don't mean to say there cannot be infinite layers of reality, just the way he describes them in terms of computational simulations isn't workable AFAICTell.

You could have, for example, an infinite set of frames where frames/planes/dimensions of reality create frames/etc that create realities...and so on. We just shouldn't have the causation in one level dependent on the one that created it.

The Aquinas thing was an aside, basically for Aquinas all change is something actual (like a fire) bringing about a potential effect (burning) of other actual object (incense). It just seemed similar to the idea of computers in a one simulation animating the lower level....maybe that was just lack of sleep on my part lol.
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