Inri Sejenus

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TheCulminatingApe

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« on: March 31, 2019, 06:26:37 pm »
We never learn much about Inri Sejenus, do we?  Which seems a little bit suspicious given that he's the series Jesus-analogue.

The Glossaries state that he was born c.2159 (note the c. - therefore his birth is ambiguous).  This is only four years after the defeat of the No-God at Mengedda (and could be less if he was born earlier), and overlaps with the life of Seswatha, who doesn't die until 2168.

Is Sejenus therefore a byproduct of the First Apocalypse - i.e. has his mission been imparted to him by a significant survivor/survivors/protagonist, or is he a totally independent occurrence?  We know he reinterprets the Tusk, and we also know that the Consult were responsible for 'editing' the Tusk prior to the Breaking of the Gates.  What's going on?

Inri also sounds similar to Inrau - which could just be coincidence, but Inrau does seem to have a 'holier' quality than the other characters.  A thematic link?
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2019, 06:58:15 pm »
We never learn much about Inri Sejenus, do we?  Which seems a little bit suspicious given that he's the series Jesus-analogue.

The Glossaries state that he was born c.2159 (note the c. - therefore his birth is ambiguous).  This is only four years after the defeat of the No-God at Mengedda (and could be less if he was born earlier), and overlaps with the life of Seswatha, who doesn't die until 2168.

Is Sejenus therefore a byproduct of the First Apocalypse - i.e. has his mission been imparted to him by a significant survivor/survivors/protagonist, or is he a totally independent occurrence?  We know he reinterprets the Tusk, and we also know that the Consult were responsible for 'editing' the Tusk prior to the Breaking of the Gates.  What's going on?

Inri also sounds similar to Inrau - which could just be coincidence, but Inrau does seem to have a 'holier' quality than the other characters.  A thematic link?
Maybe the first skin spy? I don't know, there definitely has to be some kind of Consult connection.

Redeagl

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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2019, 09:41:54 am »
Skin spies were only created before PoN startes by a few hundred years.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2019, 12:08:13 pm »
Skin spies were only created before PoN startes by a few hundred years.
I think the books take places around 41xx year-of-the-tusk? And skin spies are said be like 300 years old, but I can't remember where we got that information from. Was it the Mandate that discovered one? Its possible they were around for a few hundered years before humans knew about them, but probably not another 500+ years.

So probably not skin-spies.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 04:50:42 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2019, 02:20:28 pm »
Skin spies were only created before PoN startes by a few hundred years.
I think the books take places around 2800 year-of-the-tusk? And skin spies are said be like 300 years old, but I can't remember where we got that information from. Was it the Mandate that discovered one? Its possible they were around for a few hundered years before humans knew about them, but probably not another 500+ years.

So probably not skin-spies.
300 years was when the mandate stopped observing Consult agents. Skin spies must've been in the making a while before that though.

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2019, 02:35:09 pm »
Skin spies were only created before PoN startes by a few hundred years.
I think the books take places around 2800 year-of-the-tusk? And skin spies are said be like 300 years old, but I can't remember where we got that information from. Was it the Mandate that discovered one? Its possible they were around for a few hundered years before humans knew about them, but probably not another 500+ years.

So probably not skin-spies.
300 years was when the mandate stopped observing Consult agents. Skin spies must've been in the making a while before that though.
Ah, that's right. We infer their existence at least by the time the Consult disappear. Its totally unreasonable to assume the Consult left the world and just sent out their new toys to do the observation solo. So they must have been around prior to that - how much is tough to guess.

They obviously didn't want to keep exposing themselves and knew that the more they showed up, the more people would believe the Mandate, so they must have been pretty motivated to find a solution. Whenever it was they discovered/made the Skin Spies, they'd need some beta testing to work out the bugs. Hard to say if that period would have been 10 years, or 1000+ years.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2019, 03:33:33 pm »
They were still openly sparring with Mangaecca (which actually doesn't seem possible as our understanding of the Consult progressed over the books) like 300 years before 41xx or whatever year it is the books start (as per a random thought by Achamian in TDTCB) - edit: I based much of my first fan fiction on that exact paragraph with some assists from ZTS comments by Bakker.

I believe Inri Sejenus is born five years after the 11 Years of the Crib (the No-God's first advent).

Always been interesting thoughts about Sejenus. You'd imagine that any religion or philosophy of Earwa would have to engage and digest the fact that some kind of thing stopped birth for 11 years and that the clergy of the time felt that the Gods had abandoned Humankind. Something something the Gods punished us for our transgressions with the Apocalypse, etc, etc.

You have to imagine that the Kiunniat (sp?) tradition was ripe for reinterpretation whether there's something nefarious about Sejenus or not.

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Francis Buck

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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2019, 05:09:45 am »
I actually lean toward the "Inri was legit" side of things more than Consult trickery. I think there are actually divine messengers and prophets and stuff, I just think they're intentionally shrouded in mystery (for now, probably forever, but maybe not).

(But probably forever).

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2019, 04:42:50 pm »
Is it my false memory or Sejenus really ascended alive to the Nail of Heaven?

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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2019, 05:17:45 pm »
Not false.

In-text Inrithism believes Sejenus ascended to the Nail from the Juterum (sp?) in Shimeh while, I believe, TTT Glossary suggests that he actually ascended somewhere in ruined Kyudea. Neither debate the ascension.
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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2019, 05:56:08 pm »
Not false.

In-text Inrithism believes Sejenus ascended to the Nail from the Juterum (sp?) in Shimeh while, I believe, TTT Glossary suggests that he actually ascended somewhere in ruined Kyudea. Neither debate the ascension.

Of course there is no clear idea what "ascension" even means though.

I think the parallel is meant to be sort of direct to Jesus.  That is, a "prophet" who's "existence" and "essence" are necessarily confounded within the dual context of history and religious interpretation.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2019, 12:34:27 pm »
Not false.

In-text Inrithism believes Sejenus ascended to the Nail from the Juterum (sp?) in Shimeh while, I believe, TTT Glossary suggests that he actually ascended somewhere in ruined Kyudea. Neither debate the ascension.

The tractate is said to imply it was Kyudea. Going from memory.

Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 03:34:09 pm »
We learn of Inri early on, during which we are less likely to interpret him as a true religious figure. We don't really lean of the gods and such until later - its really not until TJE where we get the first confirmation that gods are real.

So we are likely primed to believe he's not divine.

Given the actual existence of Gods and the state of the world post-Apocalypse, it seems more likely that he was "real". Either an actual Avatar of one of the gods, or simply one of their chosen. I can't remember what exactly he reinterpreted, but that might give us a clue as to which God or Gods he was a favorite of.

Regarding Ascension, it does seem strange there are 2 areas debated to be the ascension point. That echos of religious/human debates (like whatever Church wanting it to be Our city, not Their city). It actually happening seems as likely as any other God Touched thing in Earwa. They seem to have an awful lot of agency when they want, and something like a Holy White Light lifting a person up into the Heavens and discorporating seems like something the Gods might be interested in - even if it took a joint effort to put on a show. They feed on devotion and belief, and such a feat would definitely make some hardcore believers in the "Divine".
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 03:51:53 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

stuslayer

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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2019, 03:33:00 pm »
AFAIUI, The Nail of Heaven is intimated to be related to the arrival of the Inchoroi, so the idea that Inri ascends to the Nail of Heaven to my mind connects him directly to them and thus reinforces the premise that the Tusk is a tool to control and manipulate Men.

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2019, 03:52:59 pm »
I wish I knew what Bakker was driving at with Wert's History of Earwa. That the Nail is relatively new, astrologically speaking, seems to be significant... But there's no way to really ferret out why.
One of the other conditions of possibility.