The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?

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sciborg2

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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2019, 07:25:52 pm »
So Kellhus could only  summon Laplace's Demon?

Well, if he could have, he probably would have, so...

(I actually don't think Laplace's Demon would know all that much in Earwa anyway, because the Outside is likely not corpuscular.)

Also what comes After determines what comes Before. Final Causation even beyond Aquinas boi!
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Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2019, 07:32:40 pm »
I mean Laplace's Demon is basically the Thousandfold Thought with a little more data. Neither work in Earwa  in an absolute sense ;)
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sciborg2

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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2019, 08:42:56 pm »
I mean Laplace's Demon is basically the Thousandfold Thought with a little more data. Neither work in Earwa  in an absolute sense ;)

I'm not so sure about that. There was a running theory that all the rational explanations Kellhus had for why the Dunyain could read faces and the like were actually rationalizations for what was a "numinous" power.
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2019, 09:22:46 pm »
I mean Laplace's Demon is basically the Thousandfold Thought with a little more data. Neither work in Earwa  in an absolute sense ;)

I'm not so sure about that. There was a running theory that all the rational explanations Kellhus had for why the Dunyain could read faces and the like were actually rationalizations for what was a "numinous" power.

The thing is, of course, that we can't know.  I do rate it more plausible that such was "mundane" but there is no way to prove it one way or the other, or even determine if one is or is not more plausible.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2019, 09:40:05 pm »
I mean Laplace's Demon is basically the Thousandfold Thought with a little more data. Neither work in Earwa  in an absolute sense ;)

I'm not so sure about that. There was a running theory that all the rational explanations Kellhus had for why the Dunyain could read faces and the like were actually rationalizations for what was a "numinous" power.

The thing is, of course, that we can't know.  I do rate it more plausible that such was "mundane" but there is no way to prove it one way or the other, or even determine if one is or is not more plausible.

I kinda suspect we can make an educated guess based on the text, in the same way that (IMO anyway) the correct metaphysics for the Bakkerverse is Monadic Idealism of some variety (at least as a description for the Inside).

Maybe my memory is off but weren't there a few conclusions of the TTT that seemed beyond algorithmic? Going back to the OP perhaps the Dunyain unwittingly did managed to move higher up the "Golden Chain" - and thus increase their "Psi" power - but their entire project was a dead [end] in terms of reaching the Absolute.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 12:47:56 am by sciborg2 »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2019, 12:20:33 pm »
Maybe my memory is off but weren't there a few conclusions of the TTT that seemed beyond algorithmic? Going back to the OP perhaps the Dunyain unwittingly did managed to move higher up the "Golden Chain" - and thus increase their "Psi" power - but their entire project was a dead [end] in terms of reaching the Absolute.
Getting off topic a bit to the original post but ... oh well.

Anything supernatural allegedly done/predicted  by TTT is heavily speculative with minimal support from the text. The words only reflect that its an extension of the probability trance. Definitely possible to speculate that there's more, but I wouldn't say its really support without a lot of stretching.

If you think a function is linear, you're not likely going to be able to properly describe a quartic function - though you can still be correct locally with a small enough range. So does the probability trance become TTT when the missing variables of magic, history, war, and the consult become known - it just takes a lot longer to  graph by hand ;), taking a lot of meditative time to grasp. Probably helps a lot if someone points out that maybe your linear function isn't so correct as you thought.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 12:22:07 pm by Wilshire »
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sciborg2

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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2019, 07:26:32 pm »
Maybe my memory is off but weren't there a few conclusions of the TTT that seemed beyond algorithmic? Going back to the OP perhaps the Dunyain unwittingly did managed to move higher up the "Golden Chain" - and thus increase their "Psi" power - but their entire project was a dead [end] in terms of reaching the Absolute.
Getting off topic a bit to the original post but ... oh well.

Anything supernatural allegedly done/predicted  by TTT is heavily speculative with minimal support from the text. The words only reflect that its an extension of the probability trance. Definitely possible to speculate that there's more, but I wouldn't say its really support without a lot of stretching.

If you think a function is linear, you're not likely going to be able to properly describe a quartic function - though you can still be correct locally with a small enough range. So does the probability trance become TTT when the missing variables of magic, history, war, and the consult become known - it just takes a lot longer to  graph by hand ;), taking a lot of meditative time to grasp. Probably helps a lot if someone points out that maybe your linear function isn't so correct as you thought.

How does one even accurately project probabilities or do curve fitting for final causes, where the goal determines the preceding causal path?

I think at the point one accepts at least two types of causation at work, Efficient & Final, probabilities would only be at most half the story?
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2019, 07:47:42 pm »
I think at the point one accepts at least two types of causation at work, Efficient & Final, probabilities would only be at most half the story?
I dont think at the point of TTT either Anasurimbor had accepted more than 1 type of causation, so the question doesn't really apply.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2019, 08:35:33 pm »
I think at the point one accepts at least two types of causation at work, Efficient & Final, probabilities would only be at most half the story?
I dont think at the point of TTT either Anasurimbor had accepted more than 1 type of causation, so the question doesn't really apply.

Isn't the acceptance that [what] comes after determining what comes before an acceptance of Final Cause in addition to the usual Efficient Cause?

Isn't the acceptance of "What comes After can Determine what comes Before" an acceptance of Final Cause in addition to the usual Efficient Cause?

(Honest question, I may be misremembering Khellus's thinking of the causation issue)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 11:58:11 pm by sciborg2 »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2019, 06:09:47 pm »
That sounds correct, so ... yes? Admittedly I'm not sure exactly what you mean with all those terms though lol.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2019, 08:32:50 pm »
That sounds correct, so ... yes? Admittedly I'm not sure exactly what you mean with all those terms though lol.

Oh I just mean the following:

Efficient Causation: A -causes-> B -causes-> C

Final Causation A -causes-> B, rather than anything else, because there is a future end that is directing the A->B relation to some event.
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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2019, 09:53:16 pm »
That sounds correct, so ... yes? Admittedly I'm not sure exactly what you mean with all those terms though lol.

Oh I just mean the following:

Efficient Causation: A -causes-> B -causes-> C

Final Causation A -causes-> B, rather than anything else, because there is a future end that is directing the A->B relation to some event.

I think I'm following - could you provide an example? Doesn't have to be in the book, but fill in A, B and C - only if you feel like it, not trying to dump work on you.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2019, 11:15:27 pm »
That sounds correct, so ... yes? Admittedly I'm not sure exactly what you mean with all those terms though lol.

Oh I just mean the following:

Efficient Causation: A -causes-> B -causes-> C

Final Causation A -causes-> B, rather than anything else, because there is a future end that is directing the A->B relation to some event.

I think I'm following - could you provide an example? Doesn't have to be in the book, but fill in A, B and C - only if you feel like it, not trying to dump work on you.

Efficient Cause would be Kellhus realizing that if he says something manipulative to someone they'll do what he wants because his words cause the correct path of mental causation in his victims. Or to keep it fully physical, if a brick hits a window that will cause the window to shatter.

Final Cause would be events twisting themselves so that the No God rises, because that even[t] must happen. So possibilities are constrained to ensure the No God rises. In a more general sense Final Cause is the constraint that keeps events from degenerating into pure chaos - so whatever it is that constrains a probability cloud that denotes the particle's possible positions could be thought of as a kind of Final Cause...[and if you believe in mental causation our ends determine our bodily movements and thus could be another kind of Final Cause.]
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 11:21:05 pm by sciborg2 »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2019, 12:47:08 pm »
So to me it sounds like:
Final Cause says Future Events that have not yet happened actually cause Present/Past Events.

Which to me is basically pure Fate, without freewill. You can't change events because they are set in stone by the final outcome.

I don't think that's how Earwa works, but some combination of Efficient and Final Cause. (this ignoring the fact of course that its a book, and Bakker is the final cause lol).
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sciborg2

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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2019, 04:22:33 pm »
So to me it sounds like:
Final Cause says Future Events that have not yet happened actually cause Present/Past Events.

Which to me is basically pure Fate, without freewill. You can't change events because they are set in stone by the final outcome.

I don't think that's how Earwa works, but some combination of Efficient and Final Cause. (this ignoring the fact of course that its a book, and Bakker is the final cause lol).

Oh I agree it's some kind of combination. The characters can eat, shit, fuck as they please and [so on] as the Bios allows so long as the decisions concerning the No God's resurrection come to pass.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 06:05:20 pm by sciborg2 »
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