The ancient philosophers and "anagogic power"?

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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2019, 07:39:43 pm »
from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretation_of_the_Bible
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Anagogic interpretation: dealing with the future events of Christian history (eschatology) as well as heaven, purgatory, hell, the last judgement, the General Resurrection and second Advent of Christ, etc. (prophecies)...

The literal teaches what God and our ancestors did,
The allegory is where our faith and belief is hid,
The moral meaning gives us the rule of daily life,
The anagogy shows us where we end our strife

Heaven, hell judgement, resurrection and eschatology seem well in keeping with the subject matter of TSA.

From Dictionary.com https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagogic
Quote
anagogic or anagogical

adjective
of or relating to an anagoge.
Psychology . deriving from, pertaining to, or reflecting the moral or idealistic striving of the unconscious: anagogic image; anagogic interpretation

and https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagoge
Quote
anagoge or anagogy
noun
a spiritual interpretation or application of words, as of Scriptures.
a form of allegorical interpretation of Scripture that seeks hidden meanings regarding the future life

From encyclopedia.com https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/psychology/psychology-and-psychiatry/anagogical-interpretation
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ANAGOGICAL INTERPRETATION

The idea of "anagogical interpretation"—a kind of interpretation which moves, according to the Robert dictionary, "from a literal to a mystical meaning"—derives from theology. An anagoge is a mystical interpretation that implies spiritual elevation, convergence towards a universal symbolic meaning, and an ecstatic feeling. The notion was promoted by Herbert Silberer, author of Hidden Symbolism of Alchemy and the Occult Arts (1914/1971).

Anagogical interpretation relates to the "functional phenomenon" that Silberer defined on the basis of his observation of hypnagogic processes. Silberer described three levels of symbolization: somatic, material, and functional. The "functional phenomenon" pertains to the capacity for symbolic generalization: it facilitates the shift from "material" symbolization of the particular contents of thought to a general symbolization, in images, affects, tendencies, intentions, and complexes that reflect the structure of the psyche.

In psychoanalytic treatment, anagogical interpretation aims at strengthening the tendency to form more and more universal symbols, whose ethical value is also reinforced. Silberer claimed that the functional phenomena were bolstered in the course of an analysis.

This idea of interpretation as a generalizing idealization in the here and now is at odds with the Freudian conception based on the personal dimension, the erogenous zones, and deferred action. Freud recognized the utility of Silberer's hypotheses for explaining the formation of ideas and the dramatic character of dreams, but he criticized his extension of it to the technique of interpretation (as did Ernest Jones, who likened Silberer's approach to Jung's). Freud further rebuked Silberer for falling prey to the defense mechanisms of rationalization and reaction-formation.

From Oxford Reference http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095410410
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In psychoanalysis, a mode of interpretation of dreams, myths, and other symbolic representations in order to reveal their higher allegorical or spiritual meaning. It is considered to be the opposite of ordinary analytic interpretation, which on the contrary reduces such material to its basic and often sexual content. Carl Gustav Jung (1875–1961) incorporated anagogic interpretation into his analytical psychology, but Sigmund Freud (1856–1939) rejected it as merely a reversion to pre-analytic notions (‘Dreams and Telepathy’, 1922, Standard Edition, XVIII, pp. 197–220, at p. 216). [From Greek anagoge a lifting up, from ana up + agein to lead]

Do Akka's Dreams therefore have a meaning over and above recollections of the Apocalypse?  And does the fact they the Dreams change, reflect changes in the Outside (presumably Kellhus up to something)?
Sez who?
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2019, 07:59:39 pm »
Makes me wonder if there's more to Anagogis - I always wonder if there really is a Gnostic Daimos, given that it seems to me the Outside would fall beyond the remit of the precise description the Gnosis offers. Seems to me anything of the Outside (which is Inside in some sense iirc?) can only be grasped/leashed by way of analogy, in the way an engineer can master the external but it takes a poet to try and make a leap into the Abyss of the Internal toward the indirectly approachable but never achievable Zero-Person view....

It could be that the theorems of the gnosis just can't accurately describe Godlings from the Outside, similar to how science can't really explain why kids love cinnamon crunch.

If the Outside is the place where 'circumstances yield more and more to desire', and where the more more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub-realities" that conform to their desires' (both quotes from TUC Glossary), then it would seem to be difficult to be able for the Gnosis to 'say' anything abstract about it.  You can have an abstract desire (eg happiness), but what represents that desire will inevitably vary from individual to individual - if you are to conjure happiness, that must relate to your subjective desire (i.e. what makes you happy).  Equally if you are going to summon a Ciphrang, you must surely be summoning the individual Ciphrang in question, and not an abstract concept. 
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

sciborg2

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« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2019, 04:58:10 pm »
Makes me wonder if there's more to Anagogis - I always wonder if there really is a Gnostic Daimos, given that it seems to me the Outside would fall beyond the remit of the precise description the Gnosis offers. Seems to me anything of the Outside (which is Inside in some sense iirc?) can only be grasped/leashed by way of analogy, in the way an engineer can master the external but it takes a poet to try and make a leap into the Abyss of the Internal toward the indirectly approachable but never achievable Zero-Person view....

It could be that the theorems of the gnosis just can't accurately describe Godlings from the Outside, similar to how science can't really explain why kids love cinnamon crunch.

If the Outside is the place where 'circumstances yield more and more to desire', and where the more more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub-realities" that conform to their desires' (both quotes from TUC Glossary), then it would seem to be difficult to be able for the Gnosis to 'say' anything abstract about it.  You can have an abstract desire (eg happiness), but what represents that desire will inevitably vary from individual to individual - if you are to conjure happiness, that must relate to your subjective desire (i.e. what makes you happy).  Equally if you are going to summon a Ciphrang, you must surely be summoning the individual Ciphrang in question, and not an abstract concept. 

This is how I see it as well - though you introduce what seems to me a really interesting point. The Gnosis has so much power within the "mundane" part of reality, the "Inside", because that aspect of God's dreaming is cogent/ordered and aligns well with God's rational and thus mathematical aspect.

Or did I misunderstand?
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« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2019, 05:00:35 pm »
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

sciborg2

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« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2019, 07:32:29 pm »
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”?

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2019, 08:32:20 pm »
This is how I see it as well - though you introduce what seems to me a really interesting point. The Gnosis has so much power within the "mundane" part of reality, the "Inside", because that aspect of God's dreaming is cogent/ordered and aligns well with God's rational and thus mathematical aspect.

Or did I misunderstand?

I'd say the Gnosis works with (or on) objective reality, rather than with subjective perceptions of reality. 
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

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« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2019, 08:52:27 pm »
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”?

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.
How does that quote stack up if reality is discrete, i.e. plank length?

sciborg2

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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2019, 12:38:18 am »
This is how I see it as well - though you introduce what seems to me a really interesting point. The Gnosis has so much power within the "mundane" part of reality, the "Inside", because that aspect of God's dreaming is cogent/ordered and aligns well with God's rational and thus mathematical aspect.

Or did I misunderstand?

I'd say the Gnosis works with (or on) objective reality, rather than with subjective perceptions of reality. 

But isn't the objective reality the perception of God who dreamed up the universe and the Outside?

Or are we agreeing here but I'm too dumb to see it?

=-=-=

The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”?

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.
How does that quote stack up if reality is discrete, i.e. plank length?

Oh I barely think I understand the quote or the essay itself...so not sure if it would make a difference?
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2019, 10:25:26 pm »
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”?

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.

Hm, very interesting indeed. Any chance you could elaborate on --


Oh I barely think I understand the quote or the essay itself...so not sure if it would make a difference?

-- ah, welp. Something to mull over!

(#Team No-God)

sciborg2

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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2019, 11:28:11 pm »
The real question is, how does Roko's Basilisk stack up against the No-God?

Did God lose Himself in the “labyrinth of the continuum”?

Quote
A second reason why I like this theory is that it enables us to explain why the universe is not perfect, despite being the mathematical image of ASA (or ‘God’ if you prefer). For, as Turing showed (as part of his proof of the undecidability of the halting problem), by far most of the real numbers are uncomputable and therefore transcendental. This means that their decimal expansions cannot be generated by any algorithm. Thus, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory, their decimal expansions are totally random. In being aware of the continuum, therefore, ASA is aware of something that is for the most part unordered, a kind of primordial chaos. ASA’s attempt to find patterns in the continuum (in order to mirror itself in those patterns) must therefore be extraordinarily difficult, indeed virtually impossible, since the ordered part of the continuum is infinitesimally small compared to the unordered part. In fact, if one could randomly pick out a real number (say, by pricking somewhere in the real number line with an infinitely sharp needle), the probability of getting an uncomputable number is approximately 1 (cf. Chaitin 2005: 113)! Perhaps this explains why the universe, despite being an image of ASA, is not perfect? It must, after all, be close to impossible for ASA to find order in the continuum.

Hm, very interesting indeed. Any chance you could elaborate on --


Oh I barely think I understand the quote or the essay itself...so not sure if it would make a difference?

-- ah, welp. Something to mull over!

(#Team No-God)

Ah you should ask your question - if I can't answer it now I might later, or more likely another person might have a clue.
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« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2019, 04:21:27 pm »
So to me it sounds like:
Final Cause says Future Events that have not yet happened actually cause Present/Past Events.

Which to me is basically pure Fate, without freewill. You can't change events because they are set in stone by the final outcome.

I don't think that's how Earwa works, but some combination of Efficient and Final Cause. (this ignoring the fact of course that its a book, and Bakker is the final cause lol).

Oh I agree it's some kind of combination. The characters can eat, shit, fuck as they please and [so on] as the Bios allows so long as the decisions concerning the No God's resurrection come to pass.

Well, doesn't Final Cause essentially supersede?

In fact, is this not what a "narrative" essentially is?  (Maybe?)
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2019, 03:36:07 am »
So to me it sounds like:
Final Cause says Future Events that have not yet happened actually cause Present/Past Events.

Which to me is basically pure Fate, without freewill. You can't change events because they are set in stone by the final outcome.

I don't think that's how Earwa works, but some combination of Efficient and Final Cause. (this ignoring the fact of course that its a book, and Bakker is the final cause lol).

Oh I agree it's some kind of combination. The characters can eat, shit, fuck as they please and [so on] as the Bios allows so long as the decisions concerning the No God's resurrection come to pass.

Well, doesn't Final Cause essentially supersede?

In fact, is this not what a "narrative" essentially is?  (Maybe?)

Yeah I think so...Bakker always said the World conspires and is a character. Some ancient Greeks - IIRC following Aristotle - thought of final causes as inherent to the nature of entities/objects in the world. That is, in a micro-sense, the Final Cause of all things determining their Material, Formal, and Efficient Causes of the animals/objects/persons.

In a macro-sense it could be that the Final Cause of Earwa is the "salvation history" of the Bakkerverse, that just as the World sets the ends of all within its embrace God set a Final Cause for the World itself. Aristotle, IIRC, thought of the Prime Mover as the Perfection/Good to which all mortal things moved toward. So then in turn the Final Cause of Earwa is the axis on which the rest of the Inside (at the least) may turn.

Realization of Earwa-as-Axis-Mundi may be how the Progenitors of the Inchoroi ended up finding Earwa. It might be possible to use machine learning or some other pattern recognition process to fill in the missing causal vector. You cannot trace final causes in the usual scientific way of determining interest-relative causation. or so I suspect, but you can potentially map the influence of Final Causes and then subsequently use that as the basis of the compass to find the Promised Land...or maybe that's all BS...

I don't know if Bakker thought of all this in quite these terms, but I do suspect he went back to the Ancient Greeks and at the least the European Idealists for his metaphysics.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 03:44:16 am by sciborg2 »
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« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2019, 09:41:48 pm »
Yeah I think so...Bakker always said the World conspires and is a character. Some ancient Greeks - IIRC following Aristotle - thought of final causes as inherent to the nature of entities/objects in the world. That is, in a micro-sense, the Final Cause of all things determining their Material, Formal, and Efficient Causes of the animals/objects/persons.

In a macro-sense it could be that the Final Cause of Earwa is the "salvation history" of the Bakkerverse, that just as the World sets the ends of all within its embrace God set a Final Cause for the World itself. Aristotle, IIRC, thought of the Prime Mover as the Perfection/Good to which all mortal things moved toward. So then in turn the Final Cause of Earwa is the axis on which the rest of the Inside (at the least) may turn.

Realization of Earwa-as-Axis-Mundi may be how the Progenitors of the Inchoroi ended up finding Earwa. It might be possible to use machine learning or some other pattern recognition process to fill in the missing causal vector. You cannot trace final causes in the usual scientific way of determining interest-relative causation. or so I suspect, but you can potentially map the influence of Final Causes and then subsequently use that as the basis of the compass to find the Promised Land...or maybe that's all BS...

I don't know if Bakker thought of all this in quite these terms, but I do suspect he went back to the Ancient Greeks and at the least the European Idealists for his metaphysics.

Well, in a way, Final Cause, as much as we really don't think of it as such, is the "main cause."  Think about it in terms of making something.  Like, the Final Cause of a chair is the whole reason a chair exists.  Final Cause is "almost" a way that "future" dictates that "past."  Rather, it is the conditioning of the imagined future onto the present which then dictates the progression of past to present and then so then future.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

sciborg2

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« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2019, 02:02:05 am »
Yeah I think so...Bakker always said the World conspires and is a character. Some ancient Greeks - IIRC following Aristotle - thought of final causes as inherent to the nature of entities/objects in the world. That is, in a micro-sense, the Final Cause of all things determining their Material, Formal, and Efficient Causes of the animals/objects/persons.

In a macro-sense it could be that the Final Cause of Earwa is the "salvation history" of the Bakkerverse, that just as the World sets the ends of all within its embrace God set a Final Cause for the World itself. Aristotle, IIRC, thought of the Prime Mover as the Perfection/Good to which all mortal things moved toward. So then in turn the Final Cause of Earwa is the axis on which the rest of the Inside (at the least) may turn.

Realization of Earwa-as-Axis-Mundi may be how the Progenitors of the Inchoroi ended up finding Earwa. It might be possible to use machine learning or some other pattern recognition process to fill in the missing causal vector. You cannot trace final causes in the usual scientific way of determining interest-relative causation. or so I suspect, but you can potentially map the influence of Final Causes and then subsequently use that as the basis of the compass to find the Promised Land...or maybe that's all BS...

I don't know if Bakker thought of all this in quite these terms, but I do suspect he went back to the Ancient Greeks and at the least the European Idealists for his metaphysics.

Well, in a way, Final Cause, as much as we really don't think of it as such, is the "main cause."  Think about it in terms of making something.  Like, the Final Cause of a chair is the whole reason a chair exists.  Final Cause is "almost" a way that "future" dictates that "past."  Rather, it is the conditioning of the imagined future onto the present which then dictates the progression of past to present and then so then future.

Yeah it's a good way to resolve the free will vs destiny problem of Earwa. There is an End to History, but as a Final Cause it is similar not only to the ends of the physical world but also to how the ends of the ensouled mortals determine their bodies' movements.

And b/c the Bakkerverse is Idealistic & Panpsychic (at least if the Monadology theory is correct) one could even say the ends of "physicalist" entities is exactly akin to the ends of the ensouled.

What comes After does determine what comes Before, just not in the sense of the Future being extant in the Block Universe sense.
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« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2019, 06:29:52 am »
Ah you should ask your question - if I can't answer it now I might later, or more likely another person might have a clue.

Hah, well I guess start from the beginning and go from there, because most of that is lost on me unfortunately. Interesting post, though!

Yeah I think so...Bakker always said the World conspires and is a character. Some ancient Greeks - IIRC following Aristotle - thought of final causes as inherent to the nature of entities/objects in the world. That is, in a micro-sense, the Final Cause of all things determining their Material, Formal, and Efficient Causes of the animals/objects/persons.

In a macro-sense it could be that the Final Cause of Earwa is the "salvation history" of the Bakkerverse, that just as the World sets the ends of all within its embrace God set a Final Cause for the World itself. Aristotle, IIRC, thought of the Prime Mover as the Perfection/Good to which all mortal things moved toward. So then in turn the Final Cause of Earwa is the axis on which the rest of the Inside (at the least) may turn.

Realization of Earwa-as-Axis-Mundi may be how the Progenitors of the Inchoroi ended up finding Earwa. It might be possible to use machine learning or some other pattern recognition process to fill in the missing causal vector. You cannot trace final causes in the usual scientific way of determining interest-relative causation. or so I suspect, but you can potentially map the influence of Final Causes and then subsequently use that as the basis of the compass to find the Promised Land...or maybe that's all BS...

I don't know if Bakker thought of all this in quite these terms, but I do suspect he went back to the Ancient Greeks and at the least the European Idealists for his metaphysics.

Well, in a way, Final Cause, as much as we really don't think of it as such, is the "main cause."  Think about it in terms of making something.  Like, the Final Cause of a chair is the whole reason a chair exists.  Final Cause is "almost" a way that "future" dictates that "past."  Rather, it is the conditioning of the imagined future onto the present which then dictates the progression of past to present and then so then future.

Yeah it's a good way to resolve the free will vs destiny problem of Earwa. There is an End to History, but as a Final Cause it is similar not only to the ends of the physical world but also to how the ends of the ensouled mortals determine their bodies' movements.

And b/c the Bakkerverse is Idealistic & Panpsychic (at least if the Monadology theory is correct) one could even say the ends of "physicalist" entities is exactly akin to the ends of the ensouled.

What comes After does determine what comes Before, just not in the sense of the Future being extant in the Block Universe sense.

Hm, this is all quite interesting. I've previously tried (and failed) in expressing my belief about the concept that the No-God is less "something the Inchoroi summon into the World" than it is "something that comes to the World, and happens to be facilitated by things like the Inchoroi".

To put it another way, the coming of the No-God is comparable to something like, say, Ragnarok or heat death -- it is an inevitability of Earwa's (meta)physics that the No-God rise, or perhaps more specifically, that it fulfills the "prophecy" of purging the World of all but the 144,000 souls doomed to survive (is that a prophecy? who foretold it?).

In this sense, and assuming I'm right (which is a big assumption, I'm not even assuming it lol), does this mean that the No-God then could be said to act as a Final Cause?

Because it seems to me that the No-God doesn't just get summoned all willy-nilly, but that it was deliberately trying  to get into the World.

It also sorta jives with the strange revelation by Kellhus about the fact that one day, the Inchoroi must win (which, to me, is another way of saying the No-God must rise).

But, why must the Inchoroi win, if not to summon the No-God and bring about the Eschaton?