Countering the Argument with Thorsten

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Thorsten

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« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2013, 08:02:20 am »
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From the mindset I'm working from, credibility doesn't mean much at all. It's about, as you say, true/false.

Please don't misquote me, this is not what I say. What I wrote is: the proposition should be evaluated for true/false, not for pleasant/unpleasant but also I don't go so much for facts as I go for likelihood and May I gently remind you that I am an academy researcher at a university, and that it's therefore unlikely that I have been misled to think anything wrong referring to how science works?.

Credibility does not establish fact, but it does increase likelihoods, and that is an important difference.

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I'm sorry, this comes off as social leverage, blending social with investigation.

Let me clear this up for you. I feel in no way compelled to convince you, or to win this argument, or to prove my knowledge or experience to you. My primary motivation in having a discussion is that I might learn something, my secondary is that I might share knowledge and ideas.

As a result, I don't mind spending an hour to type a long explanation of some convoluted thought if I have the feeling it helps my opposite to understand something new. But I do mind wasting my time talking to someone who isn't willing to listen.

We have established:

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I don't think that's getting into speculative fiction and trying out the idea - your folding the idea into your axe notion and not entertaining the idea of something that can carpet bomb the forest to hell and back.

When someone says 'What if it's this way?' - it's not really a counter to say 'No, it it's not'. It's just unimaginative.

You're of the opinion that I am unimaginative, at least insofar as this discussion is concerned.

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I think you've been misslead to think science involves reasoning. Atleast reasoning in the sense of coming to a conclusion, rather than a conclusion coming to it. Do you think scientists reason a conclusion, then run thousands of experiments just for fun, even though they've already come to a conclusion?

You're of the opinion that I don't know how science is done .

(Note that your reply to my question is factually wrong - detectors are really built to test hypotheses, not to just see what happens, there is really a confirmation bias and scientists are aware of it and try to deal with it - so you do not know how science is in fact done, you're arguing based on how you think it should be done - alas, we don't have infinite funds).

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Also 'proof' and 'incompleteness theorem' in the one sentence seems a little jarring.

You are ready to judge one of the most profound mathematical results of the 20th century based on how it sounds.

Also, see above, you are unable or unwilling to represent my positions correctly.

Quick reality check - why should you listen to some guy of whom you're convinced he doesn't know how science is done, who is completely unimaginative and just is around playing games with words. Answer - you shouldn't.

Second reality check - what would it take to make you listen? I would have to convince you that I in fact do know how science works, that the incompleteness theorem is to be taken very seriously and real, I would have to re-iterate my positions again and again till you acknowledge them as they are rather than as you want them to be.

I frankly think you have no real idea how math actually works, what science is fundamentally based on, that there are several ways to analyze fiction, what epistemic relativism is and how it connects to the present discussion, and I am also of the opinion that you have no intention to catch up with these things.

So why on earth should I spend time and effort arguing to you things you don't want to understand? I am happy to concede the argument to you, you may happily continue in your belief that I am misled in how science works and that I am biased, I don't care.

I'm not using any social leverage to win this argument - I simply don't want to spend my time convincing you that there's plenty of things you're apparently not aware of where you demonstrate again and again that you have no interest in learning something new.

What Came Before

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« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2013, 06:26:40 pm »
Once again, Thorsten, I appreciate the time you've spent here. I'm not exactly sure what we can offer each other (as I don't think either of us are arguing each other per say, more oriented by two mutually inconclusive perspectives). Every question I ask seems to be dismissed, rather than hazarded, based on your assertions of improper phrasing.

But I enjoy conversing with you immensely - I don't have the luxury of a peer-group outside of SA and the individuals Bakker's community attracts.

Might you agree that it is a matter of degree, a spectrum, perhaps a gradient?

For instance, there are advocacy groups that highlight the emerging distinctions between the neuroanomalous and neurocommon - that, perhaps, autism shouldn't be treated as something being treated. This could easily jump towards solidarity among sociopaths (unlikely but imaginable).

In certain instances, both aforementioned neuroanomalous groups are better suited towards aspects (as you've previously described) of efficacy in modern society.

With these examples in mind, we might return our lens towards ideas that certain neural organizations, the dynamic architecture of cortical structures, are more or less, better or worse, suited towards experiencing the world as it is outside of our perception, our umwelt.

You mentioned the augmentation of biological perceptions in the previous response towards myself. Doesn't this inherently provide a modicum of evidence towards our specific perceptions, and interpretations of them, being deceptive, in that, we are ignorant of the bootstraps of the matter (seeing fluttering paper instead of butterflies)?

Let me offer my own thought experiment, in lieu of us starting our own research practice:

You meet a woman (or man) that causes a physiological response in you - your heart rate fluctuates, pupils dilate, certain parts of your anatomy (chest, wrist, neck, face, genitalia) flush with altered blood flow.

Now there are a number of documented and theoretical physiological causes for you to reach the conclusion of attraction, biological markers, which translate into the judgment of "attractiveness." Yet very few of these are under conscious purview. You aren't thinking about the compatibilities of immune function based on perception of pheromones, the symmetry of a face, or ovulation cycles, etc.

Likewise, should you experience the breadth of visual sensation of a bee, you might remark that your previous experience is lacking, that being conscious of more allows for a much different exercise in autonomy and in understanding that experience.

The more we subscribe towards "it's just attraction" or "it's just vision," the more we are deceived. As you've described, despite the corroboration of perception and technological prothestics, augmentation or otherwise, the more bootstrapping we conduct, the more we understand our zones of ignorance, the occluded data, of which we previously had no knowledge nor knowledge of that lack.

So how can we assert that math, as our understanding of it stands, is the whole and complete version? Or scientific methodology. Or myth. Or narrative. Or culture. Or society.

Again, I think our mutual confusion boils down to my tentative offerings of perspective based on current evidence as speculative fodder and your assertions of accurate, valid statements - of which I have none to offer.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the nihilistic portions of BBH but I do see the potentials for abuse, if the plebletariat continues to live in ignorance and the commercial and political interests continue trends established in advertising psychology but with a mechanistic, neuroscientific orientation towards the body/mind of their constituents.

Lol, just thoughts - apologies again for any confusion my words cause (connotations, remember). Apparently, I suffer from lack of exposition.

Wilshire

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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2013, 05:34:45 pm »
I've never read so much text and learned so little in my life.

Hundreds of words and nothing said.

As far as I could tell the TLDR is:

Madness: "Stuff, speculating, thoughts"
Thor: "Nope" (and then 1000 words reiterating the statement "No")
Callen: "Various other things, some questions to thor, more thoughts"
Thor: "All wrong"
Madness: "Uh.. Why?"
Thor: "You have 2 periods in your statement, therefore it is invalid"

repeat for 3 pages of comments.

Annnd now we're here.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Callan S.

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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2013, 08:34:43 am »
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Credibility does not establish fact, but it does increase likelihoods
I didn't put words in your mouth, Thorston. It's precisely the quote above that I was refering to. And from the background I'm coming from no, credibility does not increase the likelihood at all.

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Also, see above, you are unable or unwilling to represent my positions correctly.
By your measure I'm not presenting them correctly.

When you say it's a lady in the window and I say you're actually talking about a lamp, it's your measure that I'm presenting your position incorrectly.

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Second reality check - what would it take to make you listen?
Well, you said 'I think science isn't applicable to some problems.'

I don't know how you prove that? Can that be proven scientifically?

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where you demonstrate again and again that you have no interest in learning something new.

What amount of skepticism will you allow in regards to these things? Or to show any amount of skepticism is simply taken as no interest in learning something new?

I can only charitably read you as granting some room for skepticism, even if I have overshot the allowed amount of it for now.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 09:07:27 am by Callan S. »

Aural

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« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2014, 10:49:30 am »
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Even in rereading Thorsten's ignorance of psychological research is jarring. Writes a decent essay though.

Ad-hominems for the win, eh?

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I've never read so much text and learned so little in my life.

Hundreds of words and nothing said.

As far as I could tell the TLDR is:

Madness: "Stuff, speculating, thoughts"
Thor: "Nope" (and then 1000 words reiterating the statement "No")
Callen: "Various other things, some questions to thor, more thoughts"
Thor: "All wrong"
Madness: "Uh.. Why?"
Thor: "You have 2 periods in your statement, therefore it is invalid"

repeat for 3 pages of comments.

Annnd now we're here.

Sorry, but what thread have you been reading? It's more like,

Thorsten: A very well reasoned and thoughtful debunking of Bakker's Argument.
[Bakker fanboy]: HOW DARE YOU??!?!?! You don't even know what you're talking about!
Thorsten: Please explain.
[Bakker fanboy]: Oh yeah?! Well, we've reached the limits of beneficial communication. Go away.

Wilshire

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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2014, 12:16:42 pm »
lol not sure if you're serious or not, but I respectfully disagree.

I hope you see the hilarity of the dichotomy you/I created. I think it serves the same point though, if he who agrees with either side can believe the other's stance is completely baseless, then more or less, nothing was discussed here at all. Just 2 or 3 monologues. A good debate or dialogue encourages something far more in the listeners/readers.

Missed this before:
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Second reality check - what would it take to make you listen?
Well, you said 'I think science isn't applicable to some problems.'

I don't know how you prove that? Can that be proven scientifically?

Also hilarious. This topic is a laugh a minute.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 12:42:34 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2014, 03:35:04 pm »
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Even in rereading Thorsten's ignorance of psychological research is jarring. Writes a decent essay though.

Ad-hominems for the win, eh?

I never claimed to be unbiased.

Thorsten: A very well reasoned and thoughtful debunking of Bakker's Argument.
[Bakker fanboy]: HOW DARE YOU??!?!?! You don't even know what you're talking about!
Thorsten: Please explain.
[Bakker fanboy]: Oh yeah?! Well, we've reached the limits of beneficial communication. Go away.

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