I wonder about Kellhus ripping his heart out..........

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« on: April 25, 2013, 06:23:27 pm »
Quote from: Capt.Croaker
after the hanging on the circumfix.i often wonder if he may have died on the circumfix and was possessed while he went to the outside.its possible,maybe?this was discussed when he was visted by the Nonmen in The white luck warrior.it was said he went to the outside in the unification wars.i cant seem to believe he could have removed his heart before the hanging.Is Kellhus a possessed soul.i would wage a bet he is.

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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2013, 06:23:32 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
he need not have died.  Physiology seems to work differently on Earwa. For example, Thoughts pass through the soul, not through the brain.

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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2013, 06:23:38 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
I was pretty sure he tore out serwes heart, then pretended it was his own for the audience.

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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2013, 06:23:44 pm »
Quote from: Capt.Croaker
Quote from: SATXZ
I was pretty sure he tore out serwes heart, then pretended it was his own for the audience.

i would have thought that would have been noticed

Quote from: lockesnow
he need not have died.  Physiology seems to work differently on Earwa. For example, Thoughts pass through the soul, not through the brain.

Some people on earth would say the same thing.

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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2013, 06:23:56 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
This section recieved alot of editing and removal of text in the draft - there's ambiguous and then there's just plain confusing. I think we should all hope for some directors cut of the book or a cutting room floor excerpt in the future, in regard to this.

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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2013, 06:24:01 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
Well, if it makes you all feel any better, I'm actually not very happy with that section myself. The ambiguity is intentional. Since I use third-person centred, the character's mindset continually colours the prose. But the whole business with the heart actually played a role with Cnaiur that I subsequently axed. So now when I read it, I always feel the missing context. Could be you're feeling it too.

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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2013, 06:24:15 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
"This heart is the heart of the World, for one was made to satisfy the other..."

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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2013, 06:24:22 pm »
Quote from: Capt.Croaker
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
Well, if it makes you all feel any better, I'm actually not very happy with that section myself. The ambiguity is intentional. Since I use third-person centred, the character's mindset continually colours the prose. But the whole business with the heart actually played a role with Cnaiur that I subsequently axed. So now when I read it, I always feel the missing context. Could be you're feeling it too.

so we are supposed to ignore this heart removed from chest issue.i was really pulling for a possessed Kellhus.maybe a dead consult soul/demon that wants revenge on man and renegade nonmen and is leading them to their doom at the arc.........to make it easier for the sealing up of the world..........

i'm really curious as to what Kellhus would look like in the judging eye.......

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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 06:24:30 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I too would love to see Kellhus under the Judging Eye, Capt.Croaker. Though, we've been led to believe that the Dunyain appear spiritually superior by the Cishaurim's Third Sight, the only other kind of Religious Judgement we know about.

I don't think we're supposed to ignore the heart at all. The conclusion of TWP remains one of the most important moments in the entire series, thus far. Depending on how that moment is framed in the future will redetermine the series, past and future.

However, I'm suggesting that perhaps there was a real simple explanation and it was removed in this axed scene to allow for ambiguity - clearly worked, if purposeful.

I, also, do think that Kellhus' possession remains very much on the table - it has historical relevance, according to the Nonman Emissary and Malowebi, as it has happened before. However, the Nonman touching Kellhus primes us to believe that this isn't case with the Aspect-Emperor.

There's always more Nerdanel to thunk ;).

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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2013, 06:24:36 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Edited for completeness:


To make sure everyone is  "on the same page":
The Warrior Prophet, English paperback edition, page  588-589 Chapter Twenty Five: Caraskand

"Hands wrapped him in a shroud of white linen." p588
...
"Tears rolled down his cheeks. With a haloed hand, he reached beneath his breast, firmly wrested the heart from his ribs. He thrust it high to the thunder of their adulation. Beads of blood seemed to crack the stone at his feet ... He Glimpsed Sarcellus's uncoiled face.
I see...
'They said!' he cried in a booming voice, and the howling chorus trailed into silence.
'They said that I was False, that I caused the anger of the God to burn against us!'
He looked into the wasted faces. answered their fevered eyes. He brandished Serwe's burning heart"
'But i say that we - WE! - are that anger!' "
p589

Text's italics, my bold.

It just doesn't seem to all fit together. How did he reach into his own breast and withdraw Serwe's heart? Also, how Serwe had been dead and has long since dripped clean of her own blood, it would be hard to imagine that someone that had been dead and drying out for that long would still be dripping with blood.

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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2013, 06:24:43 pm »
Quote from: Capt.Croaker
Quote from: Wilshire
To make sure everyone is  "on the same page":
The Warrior Prophet, english paperback edition, page  589 Chapter Twenty Five: Caraskand

"Tears rolled down his cheeks. With a haloed hand, he reached beneath his breast, firmly wrested the heart from his ribs. He thrust it high to the thunder of their adulation. Beads of blood seemed to crack the stone at his feet ... He Glimpsed Sarcellus's uncoiled face" ....
"He looked into the wasted faces. answered their fevered eyes. He brandished Serwe's burning heart"


It just doesn't seem to all fit together. First its "his breast", but then its "Serwe's heart".


hmmmm...........

another thing,i have read no mention of Kellhus having seswathas apocalypse dreams,although he is a mandate.could be he is possessed by seswatha.........i can hardly wait for the unholy consult.this is worse than waiting for the last Dark Tower book(that book was the worst let down in my life)

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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2013, 06:24:51 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I included the first bit to note that he wasn't naked at this point. He was shrouded in a cloth of some kind, so it is possible he simply reached into his robes and pulled out someones 'recently' removed heart.

The text did clearly state that the cloth was white. Considering the condition of the town at this point, have a clean piece of any cloth is impressive, a clean white one even more so. Probably would have been noticeable that there was a huge red stain on it when it was wrapped around Kellhus... Maybe not though. Kellhus is the one that 'said' the cloth was white, and he was at least a tiny bit delusional, so maybe he missed it. Or it could have been a part of some scheme... I haven't a clue

At first glance is may seem obvious that he simply tricked the crowed into thinking that he was holding Serwe's heart. But that little trick isn't viewed from the crowds POV, its from Kellhus himself.

Why did he reach into his own breast to pull out the heart?
How did he do this?
What was the point of this whole thing anyway? i.e what did he gain by showing everyone the heart?

Notice also that "with a haloed hand" he did the heart thing. This, I believe, is the first time he sees that halos. What caused the change in his mind to now see the Halos? Is it some kind of 'proof' of his divinity, or is he just bat shit crazy?
The first time I read this section I wrote it off ass "he thinks he's a prophet so naturally his hands are holy", however now knowing the end of TTT and TAE so far, it is clear that he actually saw the halos surrounding his hands.

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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 06:24:57 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote
something inexplicable moved him
(this intro's that section, does this and his self description as his standing an impossibility indicate that he is controlled by the gods at this point?

Quote
he raised his palms to the great hollows of the earth and it seemed he embraced all the Three Seas.
Hmm...

Quote
And it seemed there was nothing, no dwarfing frame, that could restrict him to this place, to any place... He was all things, and all things were his...

This directly precedes the above quoted section of the infamous serwe's heart sequence.  In lieu of the wight/frame/gate, in lieu of the Dunyain training at the end of TDTCB which says that he became only PLACE, I would suggest that the writing is strongly suggesting here that Kellhus transcends the boundaries--the frame--of Dunyain training, he is no longer limited by the frame of PLACE that the Dunyain create to enable their superpowers.

And I think--as others have suggested--that Kellhus, seeing as he is no longer constrained by place, no longer constrained by frame, Kellhus creates a new frame of reality, or a series of frames, that allow him to reach through his chest, exit the frame of the world, navigate his hand to Serwes chest, reenter the frame of the world, grasp her heart and pull it out through his chest as he pulls his arm back into the original frame/place. 

Perhaps this is the point of the Dunyain training to become only place to eventually become only frame?

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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 06:25:04 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
a search of "haloed" for TWP reveals a couple of "haloed hands" that belong to artwork of Inri Sejenus

Martemus is the first in the book to see Kellhus' haloed hands. He sees it again later.  Esmenet sees his haloed hands twice, around the birth of Moenghus (talk about some fucking intensely important metaphysical explanation in the scene where Esme sees them) when Kellhus takes her to wife.  Serwe sees his haloed hands twice, but this is during the Interrorape by something (I'm guessing she was interroraped by whatever interroraped Esme, and that a glamour was used on Serwe as it was on Esme, and that this was not a skin spy, and this might explain her seeing the haloes as well).

And finally Kellhus sees his haloed hand at the very end of the book, which is what this thread is about.

Serwe sees his haloes twice in TDTCB and we know that is Kellhus.

So all three people, save Kellhus, that have seen the haloes have seen them twice.

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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2013, 06:26:50 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
Serwes heart in my hard book and ebook.  Literally, it was a dunyain trick for the ignorant audience.  The guy dodges arrows and bolts, he's the flash an professor x in one.