I wonder about Kellhus ripping his heart out..........

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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2013, 06:26:57 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol, SATXZ. You'll notice many of us take perverse joy in making simple things complex ;).

Dunyain vs. Divine trickery is exactly the argument at hand and for this crowd attempts at evidence go a long way. If it's a Dunyain trick, pure and simple, enlighten us, why does that seem obvious?

Also, lockesnow, you should have searched more variants? Or perhaps, don't have TDTCB on e-book?

"She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherwordly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!" (TDTCB, p447)

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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2013, 06:27:04 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote
Serwe sees his haloes twice in TDTCB and we know that is Kellhus.
Quote from: Madness
Also, lockesnow, you should have searched more variants? Or perhaps, don't have TDTCB on e-book?

"She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherwordly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!" (TDTCB, p447)

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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2013, 06:27:10 pm »
Quote from: Capt.Croaker
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote
something inexplicable moved him
(this intro's that section, does this and his self description as his standing an impossibility indicate that he is controlled by the gods at this point?

Quote
he raised his palms to the great hollows of the earth and it seemed he embraced all the Three Seas.
Hmm...

Quote
And it seemed there was nothing, no dwarfing frame, that could restrict him to this place, to any place... He was all things, and all things were his...

This directly precedes the above quoted section of the infamous serwe's heart sequence.  In lieu of the wight/frame/gate, in lieu of the Dunyain training at the end of TDTCB which says that he became only PLACE, I would suggest that the writing is strongly suggesting here that Kellhus transcends the boundaries--the frame--of Dunyain training, he is no longer limited by the frame of PLACE that the Dunyain create to enable their superpowers.

And I think--as others have suggested--that Kellhus, seeing as he is no longer constrained by place, no longer constrained by frame, Kellhus creates a new frame of reality, or a series of frames, that allow him to reach through his chest, exit the frame of the world, navigate his hand to Serwes chest, reenter the frame of the world, grasp her heart and pull it out through his chest as he pulls his arm back into the original frame/place. 

Perhaps this is the point of the Dunyain training to become only place to eventually become only frame?

if thats the case,the consult is in big trouble.he would be the greatest assassin in the 3 sea's

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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2013, 06:27:19 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Apologies, lockesnow, will resolve to read closer. The commentary about Martemus being the first to see them threw me, perhaps.

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« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2013, 06:27:25 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
well it comes from my adding things chronologically as I see them. I did do searches for haloed and just halo and I did TDTCB after doing TWP, hence the odd order of the previous post.

Capt. Croaker.  just as what Mimara did to the Wight in the Mountain was a unique event at the time, I think we're meant to see Kellhus after the circumfixion as a unique event at the time.  At that particular moment he was not constrained by the Dunyain sense of Place or the Earwan definitions of Frame--but this probably did not last, just as it did not last for Kellhus when he caught the knife in the flashback of the Dunyain training.

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« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2013, 06:27:34 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I like that analogy.

As a training exercise he had put his body through extremes in order to achieve some kind of mental perfection, the process taking about a week so straight meditation. "The Logos is without beginning or end."...

How long did Kellhus spend under that tree? I don't recall, but I think it was a bit less than a week, but it was at least a few days. Maybe this is something that simply happens to the Dunyain when they put their bodies through extreme pain and approach death. When death looms, or approches slowly for a few days, some kind of unconscious trigger is unlocked and they achieve some kind of more-ridiculous-than-normal super human feats.

That, or he's a sayian and since he almost died he is just stronger because thats what cannon says.

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« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2013, 06:27:40 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
He drops a word from the sentence every day then a day without any words, his mind purged of thought or feeling.  So a week or 8 days.

Under the tree, bout three days maximum; no one is allowed to give him water iirc. 

The notion that Kellhus tore out Serwe's heart earlier is a bit silly.  He was bound with her ankle to ankle and wrist to wrist then stretched out upside down and tied to four points on the circumfix, there is no leverage to even reach her heart.  And they are both naked and guarded.  They cut him down and wrap a cloth around him then he miraculously stands up and addresses the crowd. 
Not a lot of time for ripping out hearts without anyone noticing.

My personal belief is:
(click to show/hide)

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« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2013, 06:27:47 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I was going to mention the dude under the mountain who had an eyeball in his heart. Dude seemed to even see through it enough to talk about it, somewhat.

Perhaps some slip of desire occured at that point and Kellhus's hand slipped through his chest, wormhole like, to Serwe's chest. Perhaps also like a...what are they called? The plain of Mengedda is one?

Serwe being innocence, Kellhus firmly detaching innocence from him at what is, if he's mad (whatever perspective of mad that is), his point of becoming mad.

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« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2013, 06:27:55 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I dont think the city or the tree are topoi, which is what you are referring too. Has that city/tree been surrounded by enough suffering through the years to be transformed into a topos? Could be, but I doubt.

I like your khahit idea, especially the no-god's.

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« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2013, 06:28:03 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I think like the scars on a Scylvendi's arm representing how the many ways many men could have gone have ended at one man, alot of lives (still living) hinge on Kellhus. Given the magic and stuff it could have some kind of effect.

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« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2013, 06:28:10 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
what's the argument?  It literally reads "Serwe's heart".

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« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2013, 06:28:24 pm »
Quote from: anor277
I'm surprised that we are still having this argument.  It was clearly Serwe's heart.  Remember that wicked old bugger Eleazaras, when he recalls the episode, he says something to the effect, "Now that had to be a trick!".  Of course it was, Kellhus was practising sleight of hand not sorcery.  And with any miracle worker, the tales around the episode grew.  Serwe's corpse had been mutilated before Kellhus was bound to the circumfix; since it was a skin spy who did this, he must have done a very thorough job.

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« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2013, 06:28:32 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Yes it does read "Serwe's heart", great job for reading the text, I'm impressed.

The question, if you assume that it is indeed Serwe's heart, is: how did he get her heart? A man who has been hanging upside down for 3 days without food or water would have trouble tearing a flower petal off of a dried flower. A heart from a corpse would be more difficult.

There are many cases of the text being purposefully misleading or just simply wrong, as the characters in the book are fallible and prone to error. If you'd like to know more about the argument about this subject, you'd probably have to read some posts rather than just restating your own thoughts.

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« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2013, 06:28:44 pm »
Quote from: anor277
"How did he get her heart?"

Sarcellus had probably cut out her heart in order to phuck the hole.

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« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2013, 06:28:48 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: anor277
"How did he get her heart?"

Sarcellus had probably cut out her heart in order to phuck the hole.


A distinct possibility