Moenghus is a lying liar who lies

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« on: April 25, 2013, 06:41:14 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Anyone ever noticed this passage: "He (Moenghus) raised a cloth, pressed it into the pit of his eyes. When he withdrew it, two rose-coloured stains marked the fabric."

If this guy is a Cishaurim, he's been eyeless for years. Why then are his sockets bleeding?

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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2013, 06:41:21 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
Well, he was eyeless when he spoke to Xerius, and that was two years previous in the timeline. Empty sockets could weep blood, me thinks.

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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2013, 06:41:27 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
well of course he is.  When he left Ishual, he joined a Scranc community and 'rode' them all the way south to the Scylvendi.  He undoubtedly learned the Sranc language in an hour or two, raped a few Sranc men, children and women a few hours after that, and thus seized control of the group.  He also probably learned about the Inchoroi from the Sranc, long before Kellhus did, but no one ever seems to consider much of this gap between Ishual and Utemot for Moenghus, even though that gap nearly killed Kellhus (who traveled a journey that is mysterious and suspicious for its complete lack of Sranc).

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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2013, 06:41:35 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Very good point, lockesnow. The Sranc do possess a modicum of society.

Also, Cnaiur comments in his TDTCB flashback of aiding Moenghus in patricide that it was strange that Sranc kept a prisoner.

Though, my personal interpretation until now had been that Moenghus had barely managed to convince them to let him live.

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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2013, 06:41:41 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Some wounds don't heal.

Or can be opened again. As a proof.

Not saying it couldn't be a fabrication. Just saying to walk the probability trance and walk down both probabilities.

But to bank against one path, the issue Kellhus estimated what that Moenghus had traveled down a dead end path in losing his eyes - he could no longer see into other men, nor had the waters to make a replacement magic, presumably. That's why he wasn't ultra controlling after all these years (merely triggering a holy war). Moenghus, a Dunyain, actually failed in his mission. No small event.

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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2013, 06:41:47 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Sideris
Well, he was eyeless when he spoke to Xerius, and that was two years previous in the timeline. Empty sockets could weep blood, me thinks.
Unless 'Mallahet' was a counterfeit Moenghus.

And Kellhus' journey wasn't Sranc free at all. Cnaiur found him amongst Sranc corpses and the remains of his escort.

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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2013, 06:41:53 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
Mm, perhaps it was a replacement.

But as for Kellhus' flight from Atrithau to the Utemot lands, yeah, he arrived in Atrithau more or less okay after fleeing the battle with the Nonman, but it seemed quite the hellish ride from then on. Wasn't the burial mound surrounded with deep ranks of corpses? Not just a littering here and there but literal piles of dead Sranc. I'd say he encountered plenty.

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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2013, 06:42:00 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Sideris
Well, he was eyeless when he spoke to Xerius, and that was two years previous in the timeline. Empty sockets could weep blood, me thinks.
Unless 'Mallahet' was a counterfeit Moenghus.

And Kellhus' journey wasn't Sranc free at all. Cnaiur found him amongst Sranc corpses and the remains of his escort.
love the Nerdanel esque idea that Mallahet was a counterfeit moenghus.  Perhaps Moe never lost his eyes at all. ;)

Kellhus journey was Sranc free through the most Sranc infested lands he traveled.  From Ishual to Atraithau there are no human habitations, the lands ought to be overrun with Sranc.  Leweth lived at the outskirts of Atraithau territory.  Atraithau is the 'beginning' of human habitation, it's only after he and Leweth encounter Sranc and then on his journey from Atraithau to the Utemot that he encounters Sranc.

(question was Conphas a prisoner of the Fanim at some point in childhood?)

The first crucial event of the holy war is the war that neutralizes the Scylvendi.  Moenghus could be guiding the council of war that unmans Cnaiur, specifically to unman Cnaiur so as to send him back home appropriately conditioned to leave his home with Kellhus in a year or two.

From the battlefield, Moenghus scampers up towards Ishual.  Once he's past the glacier, he can start sending dreams.  He assaults them with dreams until Kellhus leaves.  Once Kellhus is safely away he demolishes Ishual and kills everyone inside.

Then he returns to Kellhus, who he figures would be stuck at a stream or something, and yup, Kellhus is stuck at a little creek for a couple days.  Moenghus keeps the Sranc away and shadows Kell all the way down to Leweth.  Once he makes sure that Leweth will take over, he scampers off to round up a herd of Sranc. 

Now the real question in this particular heresy is whether or not Moe was conspiring with Mek or not?  Perhaps Mek was attracted to the area by all the odd Sranc behavior, perhaps he and Moe had a powwow scheduled?  In any event, Mek not killing Kell, instead just blasting him away with a concussive blast was... interesting.  I'm presuming some conspiracy between Mek and Moe, and Moe wanted Kell educated/disillusioned. 

Moe then left instructions with the Sranc to herd Kell to the Utemot and then skedaddled back to civilization to do his mallahet powow with the Emperor.  (it's possible Moe helped herd Kell to Cnaiur, but I think he may have left Sranc in charge of that).  Once together, Moe & Cnaiur really have no choice but head to the emperor, which, it just so happens that the holy war events that Moe and Maithanet have put together are gathering there as well.  But getting Kell to the Utemot is extremely difficult with way too many variables to believe that Moe would leave the path as unconditioned as it seems to the reader (and Kellhus) on the first pass to be.  But when you consider the coincidences was this path really unconditioned?  Does it have the hallmarks of a Dunyain conditioned path?  Or does it have the hallmarks of the world conspiring?:

1)Kell encountered no Sranc through his wilderness journey, his first encounter is with another human.

2)Kell is brought to the point of death only to be fortuitously rescued and nursed back to health by a lonely hermit who can give a fairly good preliminary lesson on the world (and language) without ever threatening Kell's life.  had Kell arrived in Atrithau he'd have probably been killed outright on general suspicion etc.

3) Kell encounters Sranc that herd him to a nonman mansion with a copper tree.  At the nonman mansion is THE nonman, Mekeritrig himself.  Mek chooses to duel with Kellhus, and then lets Kellhus go.  A prize like the Anasurimbor returning and he just lets him go? suspicious.

4) Kell travels from Atraithau to Utemot.  Everyone dies.  Every Sranc chasing him dies and he nearly dies on the tomb of Cnaiur's father: almost like he was positioned with extreme care and forethought.  Cnaiur is strangely drawn to the tomb that day...

5) Cnaiur's world and people have been effectively destroyed, essentially freeing Cnaiur, if properly motivated, to take Kellhus to the rest of the holy war.  And the proper motive was provided by the dreams in the first place that drove Kellhus to leave Ishual, the opportunity for revenge on Moenghus.

It's all a very conditioned path:  And the author even tells us repeatedly through Kellhus' pov that Kellhus continually perceives himself to be walking conditioned ground.  But the author tells us that later, few people apply the principle backwards.

The most basic question is: Why would Moenghus condition the entire holy war but leave Kellhus' path to the holy war entirely unconditioned and subject to the slightest whim of circumstance to go entirely wrong?  If Moenghus conditioned the holy war he absolutely must have conditioned every step of Kellhus path to get to the war.  Just apply Kellhus conclusions backwards and you realize how much Moe must have been involved in getting Kell to the holy war.

Crackpot: Moe decided to hide in Ishual, and per Nerdanel, he's been directing things from there ever since, he hid himself behind water in the cave with kellhus, and the entire time was just projecting himself onto a cishaurim servant/body double: same with Mallahet.  Think of it as the meta-water.  If the Cish can do the stuff Mallahet showed off, Moe should be able to make it go meta.

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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 06:42:08 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Moenghus was very likely sending Cnaiur dreams - Cnaiur awakens from a dream of Moe when he sets out to his father's cairn.  But Moe couldn't assault Ishual via dreams, because they killed all the dunyain that he could contact when Khellus left. (You have to know someone to contact them via the cants).

Imo, sranc are more likely to be found on the borders, there they can inflict the violence they were made for.  Prior to that its a question of some sranc crossing Khellus' trail... the north is a big place and sranc seem to like crawling down holes when they aren't hunting (see TJE).

Moenghus has form for acting through agents and staying in the shadows.

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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2013, 06:42:14 pm »
Quote from: jogrady
Xerius, when being told by his mother how foolish it was to send Conphas against the Scylvandi, says(thinks) that he knows his plan would succeed with "impossible certainty". And it must succeed in order for Cnaiur and Kell to enter the south and subsequent holy war. Moe?

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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2013, 06:42:21 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
Wouldn't that fit more under the feelings of the world conspires? I mean, you could use Moe as a boogeyman and have the Holy War start screaming, 'Moe wills it!' in their charges. :P

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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2013, 06:42:27 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Sideris
Wouldn't that fit more under the feelings of the world conspires? I mean, you could use Moe as a boogeyman and have the Holy War start screaming, 'Moe wills it!' in their charges. :P
That's the question right? The book more or less tells us the world conspires.  The book also tells us that Moe had one project for twenty years, creating a holy war so that Kellhus could take over.

That makes me question, if Moe conditioned the ground such that The Entire World was primed for Kellhus ascension, why would he leave Kellhus' path to the Holy War Unconditioned?

Why go to all that effort at constructing the holy war, to leave the most important piece completely subject to chance?   Why leave Kellhus to the whims of "the world conspires" when he did not leave the world itself to conspire?

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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 06:42:32 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
I have created a monster.

Don't see how Moenghus could send Cnaiur dreams though. Unless the Psukhe functions differently in this regard, you have to both know the dreamer AND where they are while they're dreaming. As the Scylvendi are nomads, Moenghus would have no way of knowing where within the Utemot territories Cnaiur was.

I find the idea of a meta-Psukhe interesting (though I'd like to come up with an alternate name. The meta prefix is too analytical for the Psukhe), but since intellect isn't the key to the Psukhe I don't see why Moenghus would be any more likely to uncover such a thing than any other Cishaurim.

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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 06:42:38 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: The Sharmat
I have created a monster.

Don't see how Moenghus could send Cnaiur dreams though. Unless the Psukhe functions differently in this regard, you have to both know the dreamer AND where they are while they're dreaming. As the Scylvendi are nomads, Moenghus would have no way of knowing where within the Utemot territories Cnaiur was.

Moe could send him dreams if he was there at the Utemot and knew exactly where Nayu was.

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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2013, 06:42:43 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Moe gave us the tidbit that he had to know the dreamers.  We don't know how the psukhe version of dream comunication might differ from the gnostic cants in other ways.  Remember that wasname (the Zuem sorcerer) used artefacts to help with his comms so he could do it awake...  and Moeghus excelled at that particular skillset of the Psukhe.