Moenghus is a lying liar who lies

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MG

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« Reply #120 on: February 18, 2015, 01:17:41 am »
Schoolmen freak out when they see chorae, makes them uncomfortable. Rather than a single point in space, it would be the whole area the psuke affected.

danke!

MG

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« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2015, 02:05:52 pm »
HEY HEY HEY A QUESTION!!!

perhaps its just early onset of senility, but i cannot now remember why Kellhus was in such a hurry to talk to Moe Sr while the Shimeh battle was going on...

H

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« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2015, 02:42:04 pm »
HEY HEY HEY A QUESTION!!!

perhaps its just early onset of senility, but i cannot now remember why Kellhus was in such a hurry to talk to Moe Sr while the Shimeh battle was going on...

We don't really know, as far as what we're told:

Quote
She gingerly stepped back, the better to look up into his eyes. “Where are you going?”
He studied her for a moment. In the distance beyond him, Shimeh looked both intricate and stone-ancient, a great fossil uncovered by the wash of tides.
“To Kyudea.”
Esmenet scowled. Kyudea was Shimeh’s dead sister, destroyed long ago by some Ceneian Aspect-Emperor whose name she couldn’t remember. “Your father’s house,” she said sourly.
“Truth has its seasons, Esmi. Everything will be made clear in due course.”
“But, Kellhus …” What did it mean that they had to assail Shimeh without him?
“Proyas knows what must be done,” he said decisively. “The Scarlet Spires will act as they see fit.”
Desperation welled through her. You can’t leave us.
“I must, Esmi. I answer to a different voice.”

I also stumbled on this curious passage from right as he starts his journey:

Quote
“What was I to do?” he replied. “They attend only to what lies before their eyes. They listen only to what pleases their ears. Things unseen, things unheard … they trust to you.”
The wind subsided, leaving an unearthly silence in its wake. He heard the pasty hiss of maggots squirming through the gut of a dead crow some five paces to his right. He heard the chatter of termites seething beneath the bark of the surrounding oaks.
He tasted the sea on the air.
“What was I to do? Tell them the truth?”
He stooped, pulled a twig from the straps of his right sandal. He studied it by moonlight, followed the thin, muscular branchings that seized so much emptiness from the sky. Tusk sprouting from tusk. Though the trees about him had died seasons previously, the twig possessed two leaves, one waxy green, the other brown …
“No,” he said. “I cannot.”

A certain parallel to the twig from the prologue, no doubt.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MG

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« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2015, 03:02:59 pm »

HEY HEY HEY A QUESTION!!!

perhaps its just early onset of senility, but i cannot now remember why Kellhus was in such a hurry to talk to Moe Sr while the Shimeh battle was going on...

We don't really know, as far as what we're told:

Quote
She gingerly stepped back, the better to look up into his eyes. “Where are you going?”
He studied her for a moment. In the distance beyond him, Shimeh looked both intricate and stone-ancient, a great fossil uncovered by the wash of tides.
“To Kyudea.”
Esmenet scowled. Kyudea was Shimeh’s dead sister, destroyed long ago by some Ceneian Aspect-Emperor whose name she couldn’t remember. “Your father’s house,” she said sourly.
“Truth has its seasons, Esmi. Everything will be made clear in due course.”
“But, Kellhus …” What did it mean that they had to assail Shimeh without him?
“Proyas knows what must be done,” he said decisively. “The Scarlet Spires will act as they see fit.”
Desperation welled through her. You can’t leave us.
“I must, Esmi. I answer to a different voice.”

I also stumbled on this curious passage from right as he starts his journey:

Quote
“What was I to do?” he replied. “They attend only to what lies before their eyes. They listen only to what pleases their ears. Things unseen, things unheard … they trust to you.”
The wind subsided, leaving an unearthly silence in its wake. He heard the pasty hiss of maggots squirming through the gut of a dead crow some five paces to his right. He heard the chatter of termites seething beneath the bark of the surrounding oaks.
He tasted the sea on the air.
“What was I to do? Tell them the truth?”
He stooped, pulled a twig from the straps of his right sandal. He studied it by moonlight, followed the thin, muscular branchings that seized so much emptiness from the sky. Tusk sprouting from tusk. Though the trees about him had died seasons previously, the twig possessed two leaves, one waxy green, the other brown …
“No,” he said. “I cannot.”

A certain parallel to the twig from the prologue, no doubt.

STRAIGHT UP PSUKHE-SUMMONED! Moe engineers it all!

Somnambulist

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« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2015, 03:47:13 pm »
The simple answer: Kellhus had finally reached his destination.  All the manipulations he had enacted to find his father had gotten him within striking distance.  The Holy War had served its purpose and he had discarded it.  It was basically Leweth repeated on a larger scale.
No whistling on the slog!

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« Reply #125 on: October 13, 2015, 04:01:28 pm »
The simple answer: Kellhus had finally reached his destination.  All the manipulations he had enacted to find his father had gotten him within striking distance.  The Holy War had served its purpose and he had discarded it.  It was basically Leweth repeated on a larger scale.

Indeed, the twig certainly contrasts this as well.  In the prologue he contemplates and contemplates the twig.  Here, he examines it, and then discards it. 

The twig is the Shortest Path, the leaves, one Kellhus and one Moe.  Only one can live on this Path.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #126 on: October 13, 2015, 04:19:36 pm »
I think the brown of the twig would be the paths not taken or not worth taking. The green the paths taken or still open. The dead past and the possibilities of future.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 06:51:41 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2015, 09:56:03 pm »
Ok I didn't really know where to post this, figured here was a good as anywhere.

Moe either turned into Meppa or ascended in Kyudea. Some of these thoughts are my own, most are a combination of scouring the forum.

1: That scene and everything that goes on under that tree is conditioned and Kellhus remarks upon this. (Another reason to wonder why Kellhus thought HE was the one in control.)

2: And I've never thought of this and seen Madness mention it in another thread. The Cishaurim seemingly sacrificing themselves while that meeting is occuring.

3: I have to believe Moe blinded his self either right before the meeting or very close to that point in time. This is why he
 is weak in the Water.

4: The swazond has a part in either healing to become Meppa or more souls to ascend.

5: The Skull. This is a direct clue on the part of Bakker to show us that everything isn't as it seems. Kellhus is being played.

6:The Chorae. Moe knew Cnaüir would've had it on him. I believe, yet cannot explain how, this cause the transfer or ascension.

7: Moe, another Dunyain, simply let's his son stab him, when seconds later he fends off 2 skin spys with ease. I ain't buying it, he needed to be in that state for a reason or something about being betrayed mad something possible. Either way, that doesn't happen unless Moe wants it.

8: it's Kyudea, the same exact spot that Inri ascended at. Coincidence? I think not.

9:Cnaüir, the link. The passion he needed, the utter devotion he needed in order to transform or ascend. Or love, because what does Cnaüir say over and over and over about Moe? He made him love.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something and if so I'll come back and add. Please feel free to add to this or chip it down. Either way I'm thoroughly convinced Moe had whatever went down planned and went the way he wanted it to.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Odium

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« Reply #128 on: January 01, 2016, 05:28:18 pm »
I have to say, I personally have begun to buy into the Moe + Cnauir = Meppa hype. Inri Sejenus ascended at Kyudea, and we have also hypothesized that love is somehow a purifying force? It seems like Serwe's utter devotion could have been what made Kellhus holy, what if Cnauir's to Moe is what enabled the transition? At the very least, food for thought.

MSJ

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« Reply #129 on: January 01, 2016, 05:47:59 pm »
I've been thinking more on this about the Cishaurim seemingly sacrificing themselves while all this was going on in Kyudea. Throw out that Moe blinded himself at that moment as I've suggested earlier. Moe using the chorae, Cnaüir, his swazond (souls) and all of the souls of the Cishaurim is what "created" Meppa. That's what Moe would be going for, right? Since he was weak in the water he wanted to take all of those things and be the most powerful Water-Bearer ever, Meppa. A Cishaurim who would be on par with Kellhus and his Gnosis.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 06:30:21 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MG

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« Reply #130 on: February 07, 2016, 07:42:55 pm »
Is this a discrepancy or not?

Quote
Kellhus thinks "The ground he now travelled had been Conditioned through and through.  At every turn, the probabilities had been summed, the possibilities averaged, the forks impossibly predetermined ... Even here, standing before Shimeh, he executed but one operation in the skein of another's godlike calculation.  Even here, his ever decision, his every act, confirmed the dread intent of the Thousandfold Thought." (TTT US paperback 276)

And then when Moenghus is speaking to Kellhus...

Quote
"Sooner or later, the caste-nobility had to move against you.  Crisis was inevitable..."

"'This,' the eyeless face said, 'was where the Probability Trance failed me...'" (338)

I'm not accusing Bakker of making a mistake, I'm just wondering what to make of Kellhus' view that his path is wholly conditioned vs Moenghus' assertion that he could not see past a certain point.

MG

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« Reply #131 on: February 07, 2016, 08:32:43 pm »
On another topic...

"'There is but one tree,'" the old man had said, his voice not his own, "'and I dwell beneath it.'"  (304)

Moenghus can be wherever blind men are?  It would be convenient then to have a blind man up in Ishual to maintain contact between the Dunyain and Cishaurim.  Maybe Iyokus speaks with Moe's voice.  Or maybe the old man in Gim was just channelling Moe the same way Moe channelled Skaurus in TDTCB?

locke

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« Reply #132 on: February 08, 2016, 05:24:09 am »
On another topic...

"'There is but one tree,'" the old man had said, his voice not his own, "'and I dwell beneath it.'"  (304)

Moenghus can be wherever blind men are?  It would be convenient then to have a blind man up in Ishual to maintain contact between the Dunyain and Cishaurim.  Maybe Iyokus speaks with Moe's voice.  Or maybe the old man in Gim was just channelling Moe the same way Moe channelled Skaurus in TDTCB?
Nope. Moe was skyping through the old man, that is all


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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« Reply #133 on: February 08, 2016, 04:02:14 pm »
On another topic...

"'There is but one tree,'" the old man had said, his voice not his own, "'and I dwell beneath it.'"  (304)

Moenghus can be wherever blind men are?  It would be convenient then to have a blind man up in Ishual to maintain contact between the Dunyain and Cishaurim.  Maybe Iyokus speaks with Moe's voice.  Or maybe the old man in Gim was just channelling Moe the same way Moe channelled Skaurus in TDTCB?
Nope. Moe was skyping through the old man, that is all


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ha! it just occurred to me--Moe could have sent up a Cishaurim to tell Kellhus, in the old, mundane way of gum-flapping about the tree ... BUT! since the Holy War is at pains to clear out any blind dudes, Moe or some other Cishaurim channel in an eyeball-equipped face onto the blind guy.  then Kellhus draws near and they turn it off to reveal him.  or, um, he just used a glamour to appear with eyeballs

on that topic, whatever the old man did to avoid appearing as a blind guy, i wonder if anyone in the Great Ordeal is a Cish agent under disguise?  maybe the glamour hasn't quite faded off the Captain when we last saw him at the end of WLW?  Sarl is Dunyain, of course, but could he also be Cishaurim?

themerchant

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« Reply #134 on: February 09, 2016, 03:53:15 pm »
Isn't Moe eyeless when he meets the emperor in the first book?

Although in the scene with Kellhus he does leave pink imprints on the towel he dries his eyes with.