Moenghus is a lying liar who lies

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Wilshire

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« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2016, 04:09:55 pm »
Yes, blind.

That bit with the pink is odd. Should be nice and scarred over after 30 years, unless its constantly itchy.
Maybe its a Stigmata?
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H

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« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2016, 04:20:08 pm »
Yes, blind.

That bit with the pink is odd. Should be nice and scarred over after 30 years, unless its constantly itchy.
Maybe its a Stigmata?

Or the idea that he didn't actually blind himself until just before the Kellhus encounter is true...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2016, 04:44:43 pm »
I've been thinking more on this and im gonna look very closely on re-read. But, when the Cish are got with chorae they go up in a flash of light. So, Moe, a Cishaurim (so we're told) is described as a salted husk after Cnaüir chorae's him. Something is not adding up to me.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2016, 05:11:32 pm »
I've been thinking more on this and im gonna look very closely on re-read. But, when the Cish are got with chorae they go up in a flash of light. So, Moe, a Cishaurim (so we're told) is described as a salted husk after Cnaüir chorae's him. Something is not adding up to me.

I don't recall him salting:

Quote
Moënghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiür rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flared from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiür thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man’s skull.

The whole scene makes no sense still, because, even as Kellhus says, he is walking on conditioned ground.  The whole conversation and events of the encounter are conditioned.  I'm still not buying Moe completely discounting possibility that Kellhus came to kill him.  The whole thing was premeditated and I imagine Moe had contingency plans for whatever came of it.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2016, 08:08:49 pm »
Huh, it sounded good in my mind at least. Still I am gonna pay close attention on re-read and look for any discrepancies. I did read that scene again, and noticed Cnaüir knelt over his lovers corpse.....
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #140 on: February 09, 2016, 10:41:47 pm »
Anybody ever work out how he was able to fend off the skin spies so easily?

Quote
  Serwë assailed him first, her limbs and blade a whirring blur. But he stopped her with blue-flashing hands, swatted aside her slender figure …

  Just as her brother descended, slashing at impossible palms, spinning and kicking, lunging and probing—only to be seized about the throat, to gape and thrash as the blind man lifted him off his feet, to blister and burn as blue light consumed his head, made a candle of his body. The thing’s face cramped open and the blind man threw him slack to the ground.

Doesn't sound like weak in the water. Maybe the weeping blood signals that Moe has mastered his passions?

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« Reply #141 on: February 10, 2016, 12:48:46 am »
Isn't Moe eyeless when he meets the emperor in the first book?

Although in the scene with Kellhus he does leave pink imprints on the towel he dries his eyes with.

eyeless, yes?  UNLESS IT'S ALL GLAMOOUUUURRRRRR :P

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« Reply #142 on: February 10, 2016, 01:13:46 am »
I've been thinking more on this and im gonna look very closely on re-read. But, when the Cish are got with chorae they go up in a flash of light. So, Moe, a Cishaurim (so we're told) is described as a salted husk after Cnaüir chorae's him. Something is not adding up to me.

I don't recall him salting:

Quote
Moënghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiür rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flared from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiür thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man’s skull.

The whole scene makes no sense still, because, even as Kellhus says, he is walking on conditioned ground.  The whole conversation and events of the encounter are conditioned.  I'm still not buying Moe completely discounting possibility that Kellhus came to kill him.  The whole thing was premeditated and I imagine Moe had contingency plans for whatever came of it.

that's another cool God/No-God movement--page 367 TWP--right after the bit you quoted there's this italicized bit

Quote
What do you see?
[/i]

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« Reply #143 on: February 10, 2016, 11:50:39 am »
Anybody ever work out how he was able to fend off the skin spies so easily?

Quote
  Serwë assailed him first, her limbs and blade a whirring blur. But he stopped her with blue-flashing hands, swatted aside her slender figure …

  Just as her brother descended, slashing at impossible palms, spinning and kicking, lunging and probing—only to be seized about the throat, to gape and thrash as the blind man lifted him off his feet, to blister and burn as blue light consumed his head, made a candle of his body. The thing’s face cramped open and the blind man threw him slack to the ground.

Doesn't sound like weak in the water. Maybe the weeping blood signals that Moe has mastered his passions?

I've maintained that "weak in the Water" is absolutely a fabrication of Kellhus, made to chide Moe for picking the Psukhe where Kellhus achieved the Gnosis.  Moe is no more "weak in the Water" than Kellhus is weak in the Gnosis.

What is true is that the Gnosis is abstractly more powerful than the Psukhe.  However, Moe does things with the Water that had never been done.  The weakness isn't with Moe, it's a limitation of Water in and of itself, which he pushes to the limit just as Kellhus does with the Gnosis.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #144 on: February 19, 2016, 04:29:45 pm »
All schoolmen, including the cish, die in exactly the same way when hit with a chorae. check the chorae thread, its all in there. Confirmation bias makes people think otherwise, but the words are all the same. There are always individual differences between schoolmen of all schools, but no one description is entirely unique to one school over another.

Moe does things with the Water that had never been done. 
Name a single thing that we know he has done that no one else has using the psuke.
We know so little about it, the mystery is what tricks some into thinking he's special, rather than any real evidence.

Anybody ever work out how he was able to fend off the skin spies so easily?

Quote
  Serwë assailed him first, her limbs and blade a whirring blur. But he stopped her with blue-flashing hands, swatted aside her slender figure …

  Just as her brother descended, slashing at impossible palms, spinning and kicking, lunging and probing—only to be seized about the throat, to gape and thrash as the blind man lifted him off his feet, to blister and burn as blue light consumed his head, made a candle of his body. The thing’s face cramped open and the blind man threw him slack to the ground.

Doesn't sound like weak in the water. Maybe the weeping blood signals that Moe has mastered his passions?

Disagree. Who else do we know uses magic to enhance physical ability? Oh right, Inrau, who doesn't even know the gnosis. At best, its a party trick. And lighting a fire? I imagine thats sorcery 101 wherever you end up.
Recall that Moe has been hunting, killing, and studying the spies for decades. He knows how to dispatch them, knows the measure of their strength, speed, flexibility, and the rigidity of their thought structure. He likely doesn't need water at all for the task, its just convenient to use the cantrips he knows to move things along.

What you see there is dunyain ability enhanced with the merest fraction of cishaurim magics. In short, exactly as described, a dunyain weak in the water.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 04:43:25 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #145 on: February 19, 2016, 04:47:48 pm »
All schoolmen, including the cish, die in exactly the same way when hit with a chorae. check the chorae thread, its all in there. Confirmation bias makes people think otherwise, but the words are all the same.

Moe does things with the Water that had never been done. 
Name a single thing that we know he has done that no one else has using the psuke.
We know so little about it, the mystery is what tricks some into thinking he's special, rather than any real evidence.

Well, the assassination of Sasheoka, with their apparent "teleportation" is alluded to as unprecedented.  It's true though, we have to make inference, because we see so little, so we don't know for a fact whether he is or isn't actually strong.

I still don't believe that Kellhus or Moe are being at all truthful with each other in that scene though, I think it's all attempts and counter-attempts to gain the measure of each other.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #146 on: February 19, 2016, 05:35:26 pm »
Not that I doubt it was Moe, but does he ever take credit for that, and/or is there anything direct that shows he was a driver for that attack?

Anyways, I read that scene differently. I think a lot of it is for the reader's benefit. Info-dump without stopping the story.
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Bolivar

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« Reply #147 on: February 21, 2016, 10:05:27 pm »
Disagree. Who else do we know uses magic to enhance physical ability? Oh right, Inrau, who doesn't even know the gnosis. At best, its a party trick. And lighting a fire? I imagine thats sorcery 101 wherever you end up.
Recall that Moe has been hunting, killing, and studying the spies for decades. He knows how to dispatch them, knows the measure of their strength, speed, flexibility, and the rigidity of their thought structure. He likely doesn't need water at all for the task, its just convenient to use the cantrips he knows to move things along.

What you see there is dunyain ability enhanced with the merest fraction of cishaurim magics. In short, exactly as described, a dunyain weak in the water.

Very good analogy, although their comparative weakness does not come from the same place. Inrau's limitation comes from his inexperience, not an inherent incapacity. Achamian notes he has all the innate talents to wield sorcery, he just applied them to theology instead of the Gnosis. The allegation instead is that Moe does not have the capacity to use the brute strength of the Psukhe. I'm with H that it's the punctuation mark at the end of what we just heard, that it's not a question it's a fact, that Moenghus and Kellhus had been playing eachother the entire time.

Quote from: H
Well, the assassination of Sasheoka, with their apparent "teleportation" is alluded to as unprecedented.  It's true though, we have to make inference, because we see so little, so we don't know for a fact whether he is or isn't actually strong.

Kellhus suggests that the Cishaurum did that on their own after Moenghus brought the truth of the skin spies to them, that they could not but think it was the Scarlet Spires, no matter what Moenghus tried to say to stop them. But that creates the discrepancy between what Kellhus thinks is true versus what the reader naturally assumes - that Moenghus was somehow central to the assassination plot.

Something interesting to note is that it was the only other instance of teleporting in the series. Iyokus/Eleazarus described it as this impossible thing that left no mark of sorcery. The ending made it seem like what Kellhus did to teleport at the end, which Serwa also does in the sequel trilogy, was unprecedented, something that only he could figure out. Sorry I'm not providing quotes but I feel like that's another topic altogether.

Wilshire

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« Reply #148 on: March 01, 2016, 07:01:26 pm »
I don't think it was teleportation. Probably something more akin to walking the shadow way, like akka/xin did in TWP.  If they really thought it was teleportation, i doubt they would have bothered training dogs to smell saffron if they really thought that the Cish could just blink in whenever they wanted.

This also begs the questions, why, if they could teleport in, couldn't they teleport out after they kill the grandmaster? Teleportation that only works one way is much less useful.
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« Reply #149 on: March 01, 2016, 07:52:58 pm »
I don't think it was teleportation. Probably something more akin to walking the shadow way, like akka/xin did in TWP.  If they really thought it was teleportation, i doubt they would have bothered training dogs to smell saffron if they really thought that the Cish could just blink in whenever they wanted.

This also begs the questions, why, if they could teleport in, couldn't they teleport out after they kill the grandmaster? Teleportation that only works one way is much less useful.

Yeah, you are probably right.  Here, I was thinking it was akin to Kellhus' meta-Gnostic teleporting, but that is really improbable.

Thing I could think of is that however they did it takes intense concetration or something similar.  No doubt that once they actually killed him there wouldn't be time before all sorts of Wards and Cants were being lobed around, leaving no time to walk back out.

I doubt they even intended to, it was probably a suicide mission from the get-go.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira