[What Came Before]

I found the quote that had led me to believe my theory on Moe. It had nothing to due with what Moe did, but rather what Kell told him. Basicly he said that any dunyain who grasped the TTT and learned of damnation at the hands of the gods ( or god or ciphrang or whatever), would be forced to control circumstance, and the only way to do that would be to shut the world, and to shut the world one must join the consult. Whatever happened to Kell at his circumfixtion made him "more than dunyain", or at least some intervention made him decide that the TTT was to save the people and leave the world open.

[What Came Before]

Just exploring the forum, rereading, bumping, and parsing some threads.

- Early in this thread, its suggested that Mallahet might be a counterfeit Moenghus. This evokes questions of Moenghus the Elder's status within the Cishaurim hierarchy, second only to Seokti, according to Cememketri, Grandmaster of the Imperial Saik and only because the laws forbid a non-Kianene High Heresiarch. However, Moenghus could and probably did have body doubles. I simply think Kellhus should be able to detect an imposter at Kyudea.

Wilshire, do you still think that is Kellhus intention, to save the world and leave the world open?

[What Came Before]

Yup, the text hasnt changed and no one has convinced me otherwise, so my belief stands. Kell the savior by leaving the world open, as opposed to Moe the savior by shutting it.

[What Came Before]

I have loved this thread. 

I think a lot of us keep getting caught up on disbelief that a Dunyain w/ 30 years in the world could just go out like Moe did. 

But we are given an explanation (the "dead end" of becoming a Cish).  It drives us mad because it's an explanation that could work and yet it's still difficult to accept that Moe just got stabbed and that was it. 

The Dunyain may not be infallible, but are we really to believe that Moenghus didn't at least have contingency plans for Kellhus being broken somehow?  If the probability trance failed him did he not make plans that maybe he needed to have a backup plan if Kellhus wasn't going to work out?

[What Came Before]

Yay Nerdanel! Of course, Nerdanel is responsible for starting the version of this thread on old Three-Seas.

Echoes much of my evidence. Gah!

"Moënghus won by losing, fooled everybody

Postby Nerdanel » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:05 pm

I think Moënghus is currently suffering from severe underappreciation on this forum. I think Kellhus underestimated his daddy, and most readers then bought his reasoning as canon. But Kellhus isn't infallible, especially when going against another Dûnyain.

I think nobody disagrees that Mallahet = Moënghus, so I'm skipping the evidence for that.

Mallahet is second only to Seokti in the Cishaurim. And then only because their Prophetic Law bars non-Kianene from the position of the Heresiarch. Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power!

That doesn't square at all with Kellhus's estimation that Moënghus was weak:

Seökti and the others respect you. Indeed, as Mallahet you have a reputation that reaches across Kian and beyond. But secretly, they all think you cursed by the Solitary God. Why else would the Water elude you?

[...] For years you waged futile war against circumstance and though your intellect could astound those around you and earn you access to their most privileged counsels, the instant they found themselves beyond the force of your presence, the undermining whispers were rekindled. "He is weak."

Considering that Kellhus's reasoning is inference based on what he knows and that his primary source is Achamian, I'm more inclined to trust Cememketri and believe that Moënghus is the most powerful Cishaurim ever. The Cishaurim are Cememketri's ancestral enemy and ever-present foreign relations issue, not Achamian's. Achamian may know a good bit about everything, but that's not the same thing as knowing everything. And none of the Inrithi are particularly knowledgeable of the finer points of Psûkhe and its compatibility with the Dûnyain.

And, Kellhus himself has first-hand knowledge that Moënghus has fanatical followers among the Cishaurim, such as the one that delivered him the message about the Thousandfold Thought.

And without your eyes, your ability to discern what comes before is much reduced. The snakes are but pinholes. [...]

Then, about twelve years ago, you discovered the first of the Consult skin-spies - probably through discrepancies in their voices.

Kellhus is forgetting/never heard of one thing, namely that snakes, unlike humans, have an excellent sense of smell. My guess is that the all the Cishaurim can smell out the skin-spies. I don't think the Consult would have been unable to infiltrate the sizable territory controlled by the Fanim if it had been just Moënghus alone. At worst, the skin-spies would have been forced to mimic mute people. (And if you don't believe in the scent theory, my second-most plausible choice is that Moënghus is able to do some sort of astral travel thing to scan people's souls. It isn't nearly as elegant and likely as the scent, thought.) "Lol! Nerdanel... (Madness)"

Then there's the issue of smelling emotions. I've heard dogs can smell fear. I have no idea about the rest of the feelings, but if they can be smelled, count on Moënghus being able to do so.

I have some facility for those elements of Psûkhe that require more subtlety than power. Scrying, Calling, Translating...

Unsaid: Illusion, Possession... (Remember Aurang.) Even if you believe that Moënghus isn't very powerful in the Water and isn't misleading Kellhus to underestimate him about that, he can still pack a punch.

A particularly interesting detail is how Serwë and Cnaiür appeared just after Kellhus had stabbed Moënghus. That level of coincidence suggests planning, and if you remember that both Kellhus and Cnaiür had been summoned there by Moënghus...

You know, I think the Moënghus Kellhus is talking to isn't really Moënghus. I think he's possessing someone his height and relying on illusion for the rest. I think he arranged the meeting with Kellhus fully intending to get "killed" so that Kellhus would think himself forevermore free from his father's manipulation, thus making him controllable. And I think he probably used possession to make Kellhus stab him at exactly the right moment, so that Kellhus thought it was his idea.

I do think Moënghus was the big winner of the trilogy. He controls the Shriah and (indirectly) the Aspect-Emperor. I also suspect he or a puppet of his may become the Heresiarch now that Seökti is dead. Mallahet's rivals have died mostly defending Shimeh, so that he could finally overwrite that pesky rule about the non-Kianene without too much opposition. That about wraps it up for the control of the formerly-fractitious Three Seas. Char and ruin here we come!"

Yeap. Meppa = Moenghus = Mallahet !

[What Came Before]

Well, some problems are that Kellhus relies on induction of the Cishurim metaphysic, which he explains to Akka.  He also had access to the intel of the Saik and innumerable Kainese captives.
Moenghus is distracted by the arrival of Cnaiur and company, which is what allows Kellhus to shiv him.
And most importantly, Meppa isn't covered in swazond.

Otoh, Moe does something weird in his final moments.

And Moenghus was holding him, enclosing him, healing his innumerable scars.
...
"I am dying, Nayu. ... I need your strength."
...
He breathed shuddering air into Moenghus' hot mouth.  The snakes twisted through his hair, pressed hard and phallic against his temples.Cnaiur groaned.
...
Moenghus gasped, jerked and spasmed as Cnaiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek.  White light flared from his gouged sockets.  For an instant, Cnaiur thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man's skull.
What do you see?
But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.

Moe had just pwned two skin spies, he wasnt defenceless and he surely knew that Cnaiur had a chorae.  Mind swap maybe?

[What Came Before]

I've highlighted either here or in the Meppa is X that his arms are never described. But +1 for detraction.

[What Came Before]

"I am dying, Nayu. ... I need your strength."

A pet name for Cnaiur, I suppose this is possible. But what if he has been dreaming the dreams, and he was seeing Nau-Cayuti.
Damn, the spelling is a bit off.

[What Came Before]

Cnaiur is pronounced 'Nayer' or alike, I think I heard somewhere.

(Nay-sayer, it always brings to my mind)

But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.

I think that's more a hint of how magic works.

[What Came Before]

Cnaiur is pronounced 'Nayer' or alike, I think I heard somewhere.

(Nay-sayer, it always brings to my mind)

Ah well it was weak speculation anyway.

But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.
I think that's more a hint of how magic works.

How so?

[What Came Before]

*Wilshire uses revive*

Anyway, thought this was interesting:
The second quote for Chapter 15, which happens to be the very chapter that Kellhus finds the ruins that Moe is in.

"Like so many who undertake arduous journeys, I left a country of wise men and came back to a nation of fools. Ignorance, like time, brooks no return." - Sokwe, Ten Season in Zeum.
Also for those interested, Kellhus finds the entrance under the tree at pg 311 (TTT hardcover english edition).

This quote is just before Kellhus finds his father. It is here to prime the reader to see Moe as the ignorant fool, seeing Kell as the one who took the arduous journey and Moe as the would-be wise mine turned fool.

That can have 1 of 2 purposes that I can see. It could be false, to lead the reader to the wrong conclusion so that we can later examine the fallacies (phallusies i guess) and biases that the author can direct us too. It could true, to help guide the reader to the "proper" feelings of Kell-the-savior-of-the-world.

A third option could be its just in there for fun and its just a coincidence that Kell is coming to some kind of "home" and finding his wise-man father. That would be the simplest of all three explanations, and is therefore discounted .

Regarding Kellhus and the possibility of him being crazy:
pg 316
"Though Moenghus's trail often passed through these grand dioramas, Kellhus found himself walking around - heeding some voice from nowhere"

A voice from nowhere, from the darkness, from the Trees perhaps?
Or the musings of a man gone crazy.

pg322 "Bronze weaponry and armor lay scattered across the steps, remnants of the ancient battle that had been lost here."

A topos perhaps? Nah.

Aside:
Since I don't currently recall where we were last discussion the possibility of Ishual being built on top of a Nonman Mansion, or that the Thousand Thousand Halls where some kind of old Mansion, I am going to put this here for safekeeping.

On page 315
Kellhus describing the ruins.
"So like the Thousand Thousand Halls ... So like Ishual"
...
"The work of Nonmen"

[What Came Before]

Interlude: Ishual in the Unholy Consult forum ?

I really want to know more about the Kyudean Mansion and its history.

[Wilshire]

Sigh. Leaving a big post and then not getting any replies makes me think I'm crazy. Talking to myself. Maybe I shall work harder to create misery. Misery makes memories, memories make sane.

[Triskele]

Sigh. Leaving a big post and then not getting any replies makes me think I'm crazy. Talking to myself. Maybe I shall work harder to create misery. Misery makes memories, memories make sane.

How far would you go, Wilshire, to see your madness made sane?  How many atrocities heaped upon atrocities?  Would you murder the very world?


Heh, I'm glad I came back to this thread.  I hadn't seen the Nerdanel. 

I have built up, at least in my mind, the idea of Moe having larger designs to such a point that I'm already having to brace myself for disappointment.

One nitpick w/ the Nerdanel above:  I don't believe that Seokti is ever stated to have died.  It's strongly hinted since the Cishaurim are presumed wiped out, but it is kind of interesting that one of the few whose name is mentioned more than once is killed off camera or is unnamed in his killing.  If he's one of the five that Kellhus takes out at the end of the battle of Shimeh, I don't think he's named. 

[Madness]

I heart this thread.