So what exactly is the Thousandfold Thought?

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« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2013, 04:17:17 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: The Sharmat
Well given that it does give Kellhus what he wants to hear (that he has surpassed his father) it does sound like something a Dunyain would use.
Yeah, I was kind of reading it as in just kinda made-made up. Kind of like world born art. You mean towards a purpose?

Generally I think the series has avoided the Dunyain using lies, because it's just such an easy get out for readers. But given TTT is the title of a book, I could imagine it being epic enough to switch.

Well, I never thought of it. Does seem like a potential honey trap, as you describe. The whole 'students love to embaress their teacher' (or however the quote goes).

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Also note that neither of them ever describe what the Thousandfold Thought dictated they do, and that Kellhus was forced to cut his attempted interrogation of Moenghus short due to Cnaiur's imminent arrival.
I guess he might not have been able to know how many skin spies were with Cnaiur, but otherwise, why was he interupted?

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And finally, consider that Kellhus left the grotto in Kyudea with absolutely no information he didn't have before he entered.
Well, he left knowing his father was high probability dead.

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Which sounds more like the failing of a world born man? What is more likely, that Kellhus alone in all the universe posseses the capacity for perfect reason, or that he's a remarkable yet wholly fallible individual?
It depends - alot of people think the assasin who killed Mathanet is the white luck warrior. In the case of the TTT or WLW, how much information do you really have for that case, though? Apart from narrative logic?

I'll totally pay you added another probable to the list!

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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2013, 04:17:24 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Yeah, I was kind of reading it as in just kinda made-made up. Kind of like world born art. You mean towards a purpose?
I think it's both. He created the concept so you could fill in the blanks yourself and make it mean whatever you like, and it was for a purpose.

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Generally I think the series has avoided the Dunyain using lies, because it's just such an easy get out for readers. But given TTT is the title of a book, I could imagine it being epic enough to switch.
They rarely use lies, but that's because outright lies are far easier to falsify than half truths and spin. They do when absolutely necessary though. See: Kellhus claiming he's a prince of Atrithau.


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I guess he might not have been able to know how many skin spies were with Cnaiur, but otherwise, why was he interupted?
Well he was continually acting like (within his internal monologue) he was on a strict time table, and he leaves just when he begins to perceive Cnaiur and the skin spies approaching. I assumed he knew he was likely to be followed and that he wanted no encounter with them at that time.

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Well, he left knowing his father was high probability dead.
True, but at that point I think he'd determined to do that in the first place. Only one would leave that place.

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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2013, 04:17:39 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Yeah, I was kind of reading it as in just kinda made-made up. Kind of like world born art. You mean towards a purpose?
I think it's both. He created the concept so you could fill in the blanks yourself and make it mean whatever you like, and it was for a purpose.
It's a bit off topic of me, but that's not how I think our art works - our art works by a shared wonderment about the future, between both artist and audience. Not a manipulation. But that's just what I read you as saying at first and I now think I read incorrectly.

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Generally I think the series has avoided the Dunyain using lies, because it's just such an easy get out for readers. But given TTT is the title of a book, I could imagine it being epic enough to switch.
They rarely use lies, but that's because outright lies are far easier to falsify than half truths and spin. They do when absolutely necessary though. See: Kellhus claiming he's a prince of Atrithau.
Which also got it's own book title, didn't it?

It's a shame - I am partial to the theory the TTT is cloud sourcing processing time amongst world born, then reading it back through the flame spying method, to create a mega processor.

It just being 'A Thought of Nothing' is a bit of a let down, that 'A Prince of Nothing' wasn't.


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I guess he might not have been able to know how many skin spies were with Cnaiur, but otherwise, why was he interupted?
Well he was continually acting like (within his internal monologue) he was on a strict time table, and he leaves just when he begins to perceive Cnaiur and the skin spies approaching. I assumed he knew he was likely to be followed and that he wanted no encounter with them at that time.
Well I guess if you don't know how many skin spies you might have to kill to not be followed. BUT, skin spies have an excellent sense of smell - as it was in the book, you think they'd be able to track him anyway. And he'd know that. If so, why was he interupted?

Or maybe it was another concession to his 'brother', Cnaiur? Or would that better fit as 'step mother'?

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Well, he left knowing his father was high probability dead.
True, but at that point I think he'd determined to do that in the first place. Only one would leave that place.
:D How does it become something already known, simply because you determined to do it before hand?

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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2013, 04:17:51 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
It's a bit off topic of me, but that's not how I think our art works - our art works by a shared wonderment about the future, between both artist and audience. Not a manipulation. But that's just what I read you as saying at first and I now think I read incorrectly.
Well, depends on how you define art I suppose. But I think either way, we can probably agree that there is at least some art that aims to do that very thing?

And to be pedantic, inducing a shared wonderment about the future IS a manipulation. If successful, you caused some one to feel something they otherwise would not have at that time.

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Which also got it's own book title, didn't it?
What you were suggesting completely flew over my head. You're saying that the title of each of the first three books is a lie? A Prince of Nothing, he plays a false Prince, Warrior Prophet, he plays a false prophet...and if this idea is true, the Thousandfold Thought is a lie. Fun idea. Impossible to prove though.

Not sure about the later books though? The Judging Eye is certainly not a lie, and the White Luck Warrior I think is who he appears to be, and I believe I have good reasons to think that. Won't go into it in a board about the first series though.

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It's a shame - I am partial to the theory the TTT is cloud sourcing processing time amongst world born, then reading it back through the flame spying method, to create a mega processor.
Also a fun idea. Although I think Moenghus would be perfectly capable of performing it if that were it. He at the very least was exceptional at communication sorcery.

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Well I guess if you don't know how many skin spies you might have to kill to not be followed. BUT, skin spies have an excellent sense of smell - as it was in the book, you think they'd be able to track him anyway. And he'd know that. If so, why was he interupted?
I suppose interrupted may be the wrong term. I'm sure he knew he was being followed, just not necessarily how long before they'd have his trail and arrive. Fighting at that point would be dangerous anyway. In a melee between Cnaiur, two skin spies, and Moenghus, there's a lot of impossible variables. Not conditioned ground by any means. Easier to just Gnosis yourself out.

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:D How does it become something already known, simply because you determined to do it before hand?

Well, it was perceived as the MOST LIKELY set of probable events. And if that didn't happen then he was far off the rails anyway, so he couldn't plan beyond what he couldn't see.

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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2013, 04:17:59 pm »
Quote from: sologdin
all'y'all are making me chuckle now.  it's a "transition rule":  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_rule 

that means it is heavily abstractly mathematical, which RSB might've explained further, but wisely did not present for our inspection because a ) one of y'all math nerds would've found fault with it and b ) no one else would be able to understand it.

TTT is

(click to show/hide)

so, yeah, it's like the seldon plan (but not the golden path) to the extent it is an attempt to deduce the future.  all science fiction models for deducing the future that are scientific, as opposed to prophetic, are answers to marxism--with heavy mathematics.  (drug-addled prescience does not strike me as deductive reasoning, but rather as religious revelation--or the mind decoupled from time or whatever.)

even the simple physics transition rules are indecipherable to me.  i suspect something as grand as the spoilyered bit would have hundreds of moving parts.

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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2013, 04:18:06 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
It's a bit off topic of me, but that's not how I think our art works - our art works by a shared wonderment about the future, between both artist and audience. Not a manipulation. But that's just what I read you as saying at first and I now think I read incorrectly.
Well, depends on how you define art I suppose. But I think either way, we can probably agree that there is at least some art that aims to do that very thing?
You mean as Moenghus would do??? In this world, today? Do you realise the enormity of this speculation?

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And to be pedantic, inducing a shared wonderment about the future IS a manipulation. If successful, you caused some one to feel something they otherwise would not have at that time.
It depends whether you only move them, or simply feel you only move them, but are also unbeknownst to you also moved with them.

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Which also got it's own book title, didn't it?
What you were suggesting completely flew over my head. You're saying that the title of each of the first three books is a lie? A Prince of Nothing, he plays a false Prince, Warrior Prophet, he plays a false prophet...and if this idea is true, the Thousandfold Thought is a lie. Fun idea. Impossible to prove though.

Not sure about the later books though? The Judging Eye is certainly not a lie, and the White Luck Warrior I think is who he appears to be, and I believe I have good reasons to think that. Won't go into it in a board about the first series though.
How do you know the judging eye is true? What, it's evaluation of who is damned is correct, by your measure? And how is luck involved, with the probability path choosing (not just hoping for) so called white luck warrior?

Now, I can't remember, is the next book called the unholy consult, or was that just a name given to avoid spoiling? The next sequence of books used to be called the great ordeal, for that reason, anyway.

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It's a shame - I am partial to the theory the TTT is cloud sourcing processing time amongst world born, then reading it back through the flame spying method, to create a mega processor.
Also a fun idea. Although I think Moenghus would be perfectly capable of performing it if that were it. He at the very least was exceptional at communication sorcery.
Well, two things - he didn't have the raw power - communicating back to Ishual almost killed him. And he'd lost high sight/his most detailed input device. Now you might argue he could use magic to get normal vision back (instead of just using snakes), but maybe you can't. If you can't, then as the books suggest, instead of walking the shortest path Moe had entered a dead end.

Okay, how about this as the freaky idea - the TTT was simply a manipulation. But say the flame reading cloud computing is the case - then a lie lead to a functioning, powerful truth?

Oooh, even more so, each title is a lie that leads to functioning, powerful truths (judging eye repelling the white, for example)??

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Well I guess if you don't know how many skin spies you might have to kill to not be followed. BUT, skin spies have an excellent sense of smell - as it was in the book, you think they'd be able to track him anyway. And he'd know that. If so, why was he interupted?
I suppose interrupted may be the wrong term. I'm sure he knew he was being followed, just not necessarily how long before they'd have his trail and arrive. Fighting at that point would be dangerous anyway. In a melee between Cnaiur, two skin spies, and Moenghus, there's a lot of impossible variables. Not conditioned ground by any means. Easier to just Gnosis yourself out.
I think question marks hover over this.

Though I guess you could just say he went mad and this is what a mad dude did.

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:D How does it become something already known, simply because you determined to do it before hand?

Well, it was perceived as the MOST LIKELY set of probable events. And if that didn't happen then he was far off the rails anyway, so he couldn't plan beyond what he couldn't see.
Heh, maybe you share a Dunyain's certitude in their own conclusions?  :twisted:  :mrgreen:

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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2013, 04:18:13 pm »
Quote from: Bakker User
Quote from: Wilshire
So then there certainly could only be 1 person directing it, because baring being the only one, someone else would be controlling the future of you and everyone else.


Also I think it might be worth nothing the the Dunyain in Ishual cannot grasp TTT. This is because TTT is the inevitable conclusion of the probability trance followed with ALL variables.

Reminds me of:
Quote from: Warrior-Prophet
Chapter Eleven: Shigek
If all human events possess purpose, then all human deeds possess purpose. And yet when men vie with men, the purpose of no man comes to fruition: the result always falls somewhere in between. The purpose of deeds, then, cannot derive from the purposes of men, because all men vie with all men. This means the deeds of men must be willed by something other than men. From this it follows that we are all slaves.
Who then is our Master?
—MEMGOWA, THE BOOK OF DIVINE ACTS

Also reminds me of a speculation I entertained not too long ago (though maybe the logical "key" here will be trivial for you to pinpoint?). If (cf. the other dude's "transition rule to deduce the future" idea) humanity discovers a way to deduce the outcomes of all events as they have been determined - assuming full causality - wouldn't attempting to deduce their own upcoming actions lead to some kind of paradox loop? As in, knowing the results of their future actions as calculated would induce them to make a change ad infinitum. Or have I missed something?

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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2013, 04:18:19 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I think knowing the universes next move at an atomic level would require...a universe to calculate. The universe is already calculating it's next move as fast as is possible, by definition of it being the yardstick of how fast that can occur.

But ignoring that, perhaps not so much a paradox loop, but instead any capacity to see into the future would be mared by how much you care about that future. The more you care, the more it turns to static. The more you shrug, the more you see. Tell me, what do you see? Wow, what if the no-god is actually a god of compassion...okay, that's a bit too wild a guess...

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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2013, 04:18:26 pm »
Quote from: sologdin
...a universe to calculate

there's already enough douglas adams in RSB--but wouldn't it be great if the thousandfold thought were 42?

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« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2013, 04:18:32 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Bakker User
humanity discovers a way to deduce the outcomes of all events as they have been determined - assuming full causality - wouldn't attempting to deduce their own upcoming actions lead to some kind of paradox loop? As in, knowing the results of their future actions as calculated would induce them to make a change ad infinitum.

I dunno about tha-

WHAT DO YOU SEE?
I MUST KNOW WHAT YOU SEE

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« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2013, 04:18:39 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
To sologdin: After reading more Herbert I'd like to disagree with your assertion that the golden path is significantly different than the Seldon plan or TTT. You seem to place too much emphasis on the fact that the golden path seems to be more religious than scientific. Yes the prescience is surrounded by religion and is explained by religion, but that does not make it of religion rather than reason. Indeed the three seas find Kell a god when he really is just smart.

When the prescience occurs it is not a single path lain down by god. It if a muddled mess of probability, with the obvious, most probably avenues easy to see, but it has branching and meandering ways, just like the probability trance. It follows, almost exactly, how Bakker tells us about cause and effect, and how the dunyain calculate plausible futures. Sure the prescience is not 100% the same, but consider the intellectual differences of the Kell and the much more human (though augmented) Paul is. If you look more deeply into Paul's visions and descriptions, as well as the golden path, I think you should be able to more fully recognize the similarities between them and TTT.

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« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2013, 04:18:47 pm »
Quote from: sologdin
i hear you.  timothy-leary-in-the-desert is the operative distinction for me.

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« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2013, 04:18:55 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
ah sologdin, since your here do you think you could explain your 'golden path, shortening of the way'/'shortest path, goldening of the way' a bit?
I dont fully understand it, especially not the goldening of the way bit.

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« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2013, 04:19:03 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Wilshire
ah sologdin, since your here do you think you could explain your 'golden path, shortening of the way'/'shortest path, goldening of the way' a bit?
I dont fully understand it, especially not the goldening of the way bit.
That reminds me that I need to reply to the most awesome post about the No-God:No-Ship Dune post sologdin made a while back.

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« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2013, 04:19:11 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: lockesnow
That reminds me that I need to reply to the most awesome post about the No-God:No-Ship Dune post sologdin made a while back.
Where? Must have been long before my Dune days or I would noticed it.