So what exactly is the Thousandfold Thought?

  • 101 Replies
  • 23139 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2013, 04:20:49 pm »
Quote from: sologdin
the GotW bit is a joke parallelism that i drew. i reserve the right to adopt it as a serious prediction ab initio if it turns out to be right. in the event that it's manifestly, stupidly wrong, it was obviously always only irony.


ETA--

basically, though, the parallelism works like this:

kwisatz haderach is defined in dune (glossary) as:
Quote
"Shortening of the Way." This is the label applied by the Bene Gesserit to the unknown for which they sought a genetic solution: a male Bene Gesserit whose organic mental powers would bridge space and time.

kwisatz haderach is also early made part of a different equation, during the opening gom jobbar bit:
Quote
"The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight.  When a Truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory--in her body's memory.  We look down so many avenues of the past...but only feminine avenues."  Her voice took on a note of sadness.  "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see.  We are replled by it, terrorized.  It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye.  He will look where we cannot--into both the feminine and masculine pasts."
"Your Kwisatz Haderach?"
"Yes, the one who can be many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach.  Many men have tried the drug...so many, but none has succeeded."
"They tried and failed, all of them?"
"Oh, no." She shook her head.  "They tried and died."

the uberdouche in dune is therefore the shortening of the way, and seeks the golden path.

conversely, we know that RSB's uberdouche seeks the shortest path, and therefore he must be the goldening of the way.  we know that TTT is part of the shortest path.  how is he also therefore GotW?  no idea.  what's gold in the story?

[churchlady voice]hmm.  i wonder.  hmmmmmm
Quote
That night, as always, the old Wizard dreamed of the hooror that was the Golden Room.  The moaning procession.  The eviscerating horn.  The chain heaving him and other wretches forward.
(V.12 at 441).
hmmm.

could it be...?

could it be...SATAN?
[/churchlady]

pretty obvious to me now that we might deduce from the dune/GotW parallel that AK is the NG.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2013, 04:20:57 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
See thats exactly what I thought but I didn't want to credit/discredit you until I was sure

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2013, 04:21:03 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Out of curiousity, if Kellhus is the No-God - stupidly predictable, as people have been making that connection since TDTCB - is he also the No-God of the First Apocalypse? Something that has always piqued my thoughts, is the question of the No-God's agency.

I like the inversion you are toying with, solo... However, if the Thousandfold Thought reflects the statistical collapsing of probabilities emerging into an equal or greater number of certainties, isn't it the only path?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2013, 04:21:09 pm »
Quote from: sologdin
paul and leto are separate kwisatz haderachs.  so, separate NGs, then?

but yeah, AK as NG is not a prediction for which we need to mess with herbert.  is there something truly ludicrous that it predicts?  AK is inchierex, or something?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2013, 04:21:15 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I've been motivated mostly by the unfolding topical conversation in the Dune vs. TSA thread but I can think of a number of possible parallels, especially if Bakker is picking derivatives hapazardly, rather than in whole arcs.

Inchierex is probably a good thing to keep in mind ;). I'm completely expecting to be outwitted by Bakker here so I assume the actuality far beyond all possible speculation lol.

On the fly, let's think in terms of symbiosis and Leto's Golden Plan. In Bakker's Earwa this suggests two immediate possible deviations - Kellhus' plan depends on his death and mortal entrance into the Outside or living/dead metamorphosis by the Tekne.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2013, 04:21:24 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: sologdin
i reserve the right to adopt it as a serious prediction ab initio if it turns out to be right. in the event that it's manifestly, stupidly wrong, it was obviously always only irony.
I really should have this in my signature...

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2013, 04:21:35 pm »
Quote from: Borric
There seems to be a lot of deep thinking going off here, but no one has mentioned what the basic plan is about? (Sorry if Iím wrong, not read the thread in detail)

My practical understanding of the thousand fold thought is simple, itís Moenghus plan to defeat the consult, from start to finish.

Starting with Kellhus summons from Ishul, and encompassing his travels and education.

The design and manufacture of the holy war (this was Moenghus tool to combine the warring factions of Fanimry and inrithism, because as Moe said, human kind would stand no chance unless combined)

Thought number 1000 ends in ultimate victory over the Consult?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2013, 04:21:41 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Hmm... the basic plan is... whatever Kellhus wants it to be? He's the X-factor in the Thousandfold paths unfolding from him and he knows where all leads... allegedly.

However, thought 1000 is most certainly apprehending the Absolute or Godhood/what the Dunyain have been breeding for. Whatever that means.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2013, 04:21:46 pm »
Quote from: Borric
If you feel the thousand fold thought now belongs to Kellhus, then i guess so.

Iím talking about Moes original thought though.
And thatís as clear as crystal. The destruction of the consult.
I just find it odd that no one is mentioning that.
As the original question was ďwhat is the thousand fold thoughtĒ

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2013, 04:21:59 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I'm honestly one of the camp that Moenghus is a lying liar who lies. All I can do with that one is point out the dissonance between what he reveals to Kellhus on different occasions and points to in their conversation.

Everything Moenghus the Elder did is suspect to me.

Also, I really am of the opinion that the Thousandfold Thought is one artifact. Its the probability trance collapsing into long-term assurances, things that, no-matter what, will come to pass - depending, of course, on the Dunyain trying to explore the world's circumstances to that extent.

If the destruction of the Consult is where the Thought ended for Moenghus, then, perhaps, Moenghus isn't the Dunyain I've thought he was. Kellhus just sees past his father.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2013, 04:22:06 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
The TTT doesn't 'belong' to anyone. To me it is a summation of probability. The Thought did no so much as out-grow its creator (big Moe), but rather his son saw farther. It did not grow, it was more fully revealed, and perhaps in this one case the blind man was truly blind.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2013, 04:22:12 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I was wondering if there's any connection between thousand fold thought and the thousand temples?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2013, 04:22:18 pm »
Quote from: Galbrod
...and the Thousand Thousand Halls... If I remember correctly the T. T. halls were used to test dunyain initiates (weeding out those that were unable to escape the labyrinth of tunnels). On a higher level, the world and all all of its conflicting forces and agendas could be seen as some sort of labyrinth to be overcome by a dunyain, where the thousandfold thought would be the way out of such a labyrith...

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2013, 04:22:24 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1, Wilshire.

Quote from: Galbrod
On a higher level, the world and all all of its conflicting forces and agendas could be seen as some sort of labyrinth to be overcome by a dunyain, where the thousandfold thought would be the way out of such a labyrith...

:shock: ... sweet thought. +1.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2013, 04:22:35 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Galbrod
...and the Thousand Thousand Halls... If I remember correctly the T. T. halls were used to test dunyain initiates (weeding out those that were unable to escape the labyrinth of tunnels). On a higher level, the world and all all of its conflicting forces and agendas could be seen as some sort of labyrinth to be overcome by a dunyain, where the thousandfold thought would be the way out of such a labyrith...

Thats good. I like that connection.
Could have been the name of the test given to those Dunyain that were smart/strong enough to grasp it. That only the top tier Dunyain where given the tools to see into the darkness that laid before. A lesser Dunyain would simply get lost in its depth, but the strongest could see past.
This puts Moe somewhere at the top of the alleged dunyain hierarchy. The Dunyain sent him to the world to test his son, who broke somewhere along the way (or saw a shorter/different path depending on your interpretation). This was not accounted for and a the cycle of teacher to student was broken.
Kell then manipulates the other half-dunyain into seeing the Thought as he wants them (a version not necessarily the same as the one he has grasped depending on what suits his needs).

Any singlefold thoughts on that?