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« on: April 26, 2013, 04:35:59 pm »
Quote from: Truth Shines
Reading this book for the third time, and stumbled across a sleeping T-Rex...  Did, did, did he really just accidentally give away the outcome of the Great Ordeal?!  :o   Or am I hallucinating?  ;)

USA First Edition 2009, Hardcover, Page 163-164:

"... an endless train of supplies wound in front of the southern horizon, bearing arms, wares, rations, and more rations...  Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen -- a name that would later become holy."

If the Great Ordeal fails, there would be no one left alive in the world to talk about it, to make it "later become holy" (similar to how the word "Veteran" became holy in the aftermath of the Holy War).  This must mean the Ordeal will eventually succeed, somehow, in preventing the rise of No-God for the second time.

Or am I crazy?!

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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2013, 04:36:06 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
A generous interpretation. Not necessarily wrong, but not the only option here.
It is possible for them to fail. For example, Meppa is pretty much a holy figure simply since he was a survivor.
The Herdsmen could already be a holy name, given that for period of time the Ordeal had contact with the empire back home. Those left behind can pretty much be expected to revere any news or deeds that they heard about. The nickname, once learned by the normal folk, could possibly just become holy simply by existing.

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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2013, 04:36:12 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
"Later" could easily just mean "about a week later". The Ordeal is an army of fanatical believers. Pretty much anything is going to start feeling like a sacrament to them pretty darn quickly. I think that's the point RSB is making there, actually: that even what started as a casual, almost cynical, nickname takes on greater significance thanks to Kellhus' inspiration/manipulation.

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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2013, 04:36:18 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
and what is more sacred then the men who keep the beasts that feed you?

And who will herd the sranc that feed you?

The Herdsmen.

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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2013, 04:36:24 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lmao, wicked imagery, lockesnow... however, I don't imagine that they'll have to herd the Sranc in order to maintain a food source. They are constantly after the Ordeal. I do wonder if we're supposed to assume that in the Battle of the Horde and the Battle of the Five Fingers, the Ordeal took care of enough Sranc to stop them mobbing?

Quote from: Duskweaver
I think that's the point RSB is making there, actually: that even what started as a casual, almost cynical, nickname takes on greater significance thanks to [...]

normal cultural and social interaction - though, I agree that Kellhus' manipulations are likely embedding these memes faster, couldn't Bakker also be suggesting that this is a way groups identify themselves? I think the speed its adopted and its consensual value (Holy) speaks to the scary fast way human groups can take on collective identity, which then defines (comes before) some of their beliefs and actions?

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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2013, 04:36:32 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
think the speed its adopted and its consensual value (Holy) speaks to the scary fast way human groups can take on collective identity, which then defines (comes before) some of their beliefs and actions?
Which in turn further defines that collective identity. And when it becomes sufficiently self-referential/self-reinforcing, creating enough meaning out of apparent meaninglessness... well, hello there, Professor Hofstadter! ;)

More and more, I'm coming to see the Ordeal, not as a tool Kellhus is using for some purpose, but rather as the process of fashioning a tool shaped like itself. You'd normally expect the word 'ordeal' to be applied to an event (or series of events), rather than a group of people. An ordeal is usually something you experience, not something you are. It sounded like a very odd use of the word right from the start, and I'm beginning to think that might have been intended as a clue.

So, crackpot theory time. Kellhus is using careful application of extreme experiences to turn the Ordeal itself into the awakened God of Gods: a gestalt soul capable of self-awareness.

(Corollary: the Consult used careful application of extreme experiences, enhanced by the Tekne, to turn a bunch of captives into the No-God: a gestalt mind incapable of... well, actually, I'm not entirely sure what Mog-Pharau's cognitive impairments are and I'm hesitant to label him non-self-aware. His plaintive demand that "You must tell me what you see!" is self-referential, so he seems to be in some sense aware that he exists. He just doesn't seem to have any idea what he is. Perhaps he's just a broken loop, able to ask the question "Who am I?" but unable to answer it.)

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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2013, 04:36:51 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Duskweaver
Which in turn further defines that collective identity. And when it becomes sufficiently self-referential/self-reinforcing, creating enough meaning out of apparent meaninglessness... well, hello there, Professor Hofstadter! ;)

One of my good friends growing up turned me onto Godel, Escher, Bach at 15... he'd read it at 13. Crazy fuck.

Quote from: Duskweaver
Kellhus is using careful application of extreme experiences to turn the Ordeal itself into the awakened God of Gods: a gestalt soul capable of self-awareness.

I like it. I'm not sure of the narrative ramifications but it fits very well with Moenghus' Viramsata metaphor in TTT - which in turn, fits nicely with the analogy we're drawing here.

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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2013, 04:37:05 pm »
Quote from: Truth Shines
Quote from: Duskweaver
It sounded like a very odd use of the word right from the start, and I'm beginning to think that might have been intended as a clue.
Probably untrue.  ;)  It's almost certainly a name taken from the events of the First Apocalypse, where Anasurimbor Celmomas also led a coalition called The Great Ordeal against Golgotterath.

Quote from: Madness
One of my good friends growing up turned me onto Godel, Escher, Bach at 15... he'd read it at 13. Crazy fuck.
I'll bet you he's an Erratic by now.

Anyway I just threw that out there to see what you guys think.  It may well be nothing, but I do think it's suggestive.  After all, the soldiers call themselves Men of the Ordeal.  "Herdsmen" is more of a joke among themselves.  So they wouldn't make that term "become holy."  Those who "make it holy" seem to me should be those who are not direct participants in the war.  Keep in mind that the soldiers are not at all representative of the people of the three seas in general -- they are the fanatical believers whereas many in the three seas are probably skeptics to say the least (such as the followers of Yatwer, underground Orthodox, the fugitive padirajah, the countless who have suffered during the Unification War, and pretty much everybody in Zeum).  It's the success (still completely undefinable in my mind) of the Ordeal that will finally convince these in the end, and "holify" the whole thing in legend.

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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2013, 04:37:39 pm »
Quote from: sologdin
i noted in the margin a few other moments where the narrator seems to cast forward spoilery.  will try to track them down.

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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2013, 04:38:45 pm »
Quote from: FŽanor
Quote from: Truth Shines
If the Great Ordeal fails, there would be no one left alive in the world to talk about it, to make it "later become holy" (similar to how the word "Veteran" became holy in the aftermath of the Holy War).  This must mean the Ordeal will eventually succeed, somehow, in preventing the rise of No-God for the second time.

Or am I crazy?!

The options are not mutually exclusive.

On topic, I think 'later' referes to a short/medium period of time, like months; that and fanatism should do it so (raise the herdsmen to holy); I also like the other interpretation, about herding the sranc to feed themselves as a holy task. I don't think RSB would spoil in that way the end of the ordeal, like talking about how men would call their veterans in the future, "after the ordeal" (btw, excellent Genesis instrumental track from "Selling England by the pound").


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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2013, 04:38:55 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: FŽanor
Quote from: Truth Shines
If the Great Ordeal fails, there would be no one left alive in the world to talk about it, to make it "later become holy" (similar to how the word "Veteran" became holy in the aftermath of the Holy War).  This must mean the Ordeal will eventually succeed, somehow, in preventing the rise of No-God for the second time.

Or am I crazy?!

The options are not mutually exclusive.
:lol:

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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2013, 04:39:01 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
page 221 WLW
"A massacre of the mad many by the holy few"
holy few, in this instance, is specifically referring to the men of the ordeal, which also means it is referring to The Herdsmen. So by half way through WLW they considered themselves holy.

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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2013, 04:39:06 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Duskweaver
More and more, I'm coming to see the Ordeal, not as a tool Kellhus is using for some purpose, but rather as the process of fashioning a tool shaped like itself. You'd normally expect the word 'ordeal' to be applied to an event (or series of events), rather than a group of people. An ordeal is usually something you experience, not something you are. It sounded like a very odd use of the word right from the start, and I'm beginning to think that might have been intended as a clue.

So, crackpot theory time. Kellhus is using careful application of extreme experiences to turn the Ordeal itself into the awakened God of Gods: a gestalt soul capable of self-awareness.

(Corollary: the Consult used careful application of extreme experiences, enhanced by the Tekne, to turn a bunch of captives into the No-God: a gestalt mind incapable of... well, actually, I'm not entirely sure what Mog-Pharau's cognitive impairments are and I'm hesitant to label him non-self-aware. His plaintive demand that "You must tell me what you see!" is self-referential, so he seems to be in some sense aware that he exists. He just doesn't seem to have any idea what he is. Perhaps he's just a broken loop, able to ask the question "Who am I?" but unable to answer it.)

Man, this is great.

K already has experience like this with the TT and forging the Holy War into a tool that he used to create the New Empire.

Raising the crack'dpottery stakes (Nerdanel factor 9, Captain);
Maybe the third series will see Kelmomas taking to the stars after reverse engineering the Ark and the IF.
Kinda like an inversion of the fremen on the Golden Path

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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2013, 04:39:13 pm »
Quote from: Madness
"And the great Ark, horned and gleaming, began to rise, shaking from its alien filigree the stone of battlements and the flesh of men as both fell to the distant ground below."

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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2013, 04:39:18 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I don't want kelmomas to be the one that starts off the scattering... wonder how he would react if the consult kill his momma?