prologue

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Alia

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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2014, 08:45:27 pm »
The quote with Akka is in Chapter 6, Marrow, when Akka wakes after a dream of Celmomas telling him of Ishual, hears a ribald song and goes down to the common room to see "The Skin Eaters, singing before they shed blood".
Of course, in the same chapter Sarl boasts that he's been with the Captain since the very beginning - but naturally he could be lying, couldn't he?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2014, 08:49:02 pm »
"Very beginning" can be ambiguous if you want it to be. Beginning of the Holy Way, beginning of the Skin Eaters, beginning of  his life, beginning of this current expedition, etc.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2014, 10:36:59 pm »
I took that to mean since they were unit-ed together in the Holy War.

I wonder what is going to happen with Sarl and the Captain's head.

Still undecided on the Traveler - I'm banking the Ministrate just because I think they're a very cool fantasy organization that thus far has been peripheral to the story.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2014, 02:42:25 am »
Yeah my guess is that it's just some Ministrate dude. It seems likely that Kellhus would train these guys in certain ways as well, enough so that they could serve the purposes required for what the traveler achieves. I also agree that the "We find everyone" line hints towards an organization. Not only that, but during TWLW, when Mimara is kind hanging back and talking to Sarl a few times, he actually explains to her who found the Skin-Eaters, and his answer is the Ministrate. I kind of doubt it was Kayutas honestly, I just think he's too important to go on an expedition like that.

I'm also very curious about Sarl in TUC. He has qirri, enough that he could survive and tag along behind Akka and Mimara without them realizing (for awhile, anyway). And he's already fulfilling the whole "Gollum" thing. I expect we'll see that expanded on. Sarl will be Smeagol, the Captain's head will be Gollum (a delusion in Sarl's mind, of course). And I think the "precious" will be Mimara. She was the only one that showed kindness to him -- both by talking/joking with him on the trek through the Istyuli Plains, and then later by giving him the qirri.

I'd love if TUC opened with a Sarl POV, hunched on top of a hill overlooking Ishual, talking between himself and the "Captain".

Alia

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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2014, 07:16:42 am »
"Very beginning" can be ambiguous if you want it to be. Beginning of the Holy Way, beginning of the Skin Eaters, beginning of  his life, beginning of this current expedition, etc.

Here is the quote from Sarl (again, Chapter 6, Marrow, Sarl talks to Achamian): "I've been with the Captain since the beginning. From before the Imperial Bounty, in the wars against the Orthodox. I've seen him stand untouched in a hail of arrows, while I cringed behind my shield. I was at his side on the walls of Meigiri, when the fucking Longbeards fell over themselves trying to flee from his blood-maddened gaze. I was there, after the battle of Em'famir." So he means here the Unification Wars. Certainly not the Holy War, Sarl is not a Veteran.
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Madness

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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2014, 11:41:40 am »
Truth. Sarl is not a Veteran.
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MrGanondorf

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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2014, 06:42:54 pm »
Yeah my guess is that it's just some Ministrate dude. It seems likely that Kellhus would train these guys in certain ways as well, enough so that they could serve the purposes required for what the traveler achieves. I also agree that the "We find everyone" line hints towards an organization. Not only that, but during TWLW, when Mimara is kind hanging back and talking to Sarl a few times, he actually explains to her who found the Skin-Eaters, and his answer is the Ministrate. I kind of doubt it was Kayutas honestly, I just think he's too important to go on an expedition like that.

I'm also very curious about Sarl in TUC. He has qirri, enough that he could survive and tag along behind Akka and Mimara without them realizing (for awhile, anyway). And he's already fulfilling the whole "Gollum" thing. I expect we'll see that expanded on. Sarl will be Smeagol, the Captain's head will be Gollum (a delusion in Sarl's mind, of course). And I think the "precious" will be Mimara. She was the only one that showed kindness to him -- both by talking/joking with him on the trek through the Istyuli Plains, and then later by giving him the qirri.

I'd love if TUC opened with a Sarl POV, hunched on top of a hill overlooking Ishual, talking between himself and the "Captain".

I would love that beginning!  Can't shake the feeling that Sarl is dunyain doing what dunyain do: appearing otherwise.  Maybe the surprise would be that *he* is the one and only broken dunyain.  I can't see Sarl surviving long in the wilderness unless he can do whatever old Moe did to the sranc so long ago.  It's conveniet that Akka and Mimi don't walk through the sky so that Sarl could follow, albeit SRANC.

Akka breaks into the super secret Pragma Lounge only to find Sarl sipping on qirri flavored coffee.

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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 04:30:41 pm »
My personal nerdanel, as I believe you call it here, is that the traveler's identity is largely irrelevant compared to his purpose.

I always loved my namesake and he's definitely my favourite character. I got to wondering though at some point...just what is Kosoter? The first theory I had was just that he was simply Palatine (I think?) Soter because he was a noble Veteran from the Holy War that definitely was on Team Kellhus. Then I wondered if he was one of Nascenti but they would all have powerful positions in the Ministrate and not be out killing sranc for a living. I've concluded that he was indeed just a fanatical warrior from the Unification Wars that became famous but the blasted and evil things Mimara sees in him with her Judging Eye speaks of something far darker and terrible than anything else. Achamian is clearly going to be pretty damned, certainly moreso than the Skin Eaters, whatever their histories. Surely Kosoter can't just be that much more of a dick than them as far as the gods are concerned? There had to be some other answers.

I think the scene that really did it for me was when he looked at all the fire and horror of Moria 2.0 and everyone else thought they'd come to the outer precincts of Hell. He dismissed it because "if it was Hell, I would remember". At first this simply sounded like some token badass comment but Kosoter doesn't just go around making badass comments. He isn't Cnair. Instead he makes a fairly cryptic comment about Hell and it dawned on me later that maybe he is telling the truth...or thereabouts. Maybe Kellhus did indeed make his own Inverse Fire and show it to a bunch of people to utterly condition them to his cause? That was the main reason I thought the traveler came to get Kosoter...to simply show him the IF and it's why he is so utterly dedicated to 'saving our souls' with the Princess. He's not just some local guide and guardian that they chose at random- there were other Veterans and they'd easily be convinced by enough gold, power or 'FOR THE EMPRAH' shtick. Kellhus could have found a way. Instead, he chose Kosoter, a man that has been going on slogs since they became a thing. Why? He must have enough wealth or influence to be somewhere else? It can't simply be devotion to Kellhus that led him to do what he did and what no other men really could do. Kellhus intended for Mimara to be kept safe for a reason. He had a plan for her and Achamian).

The total crackpot I've also been kicking around about it is the one off-reference to walking the Outside. If someone goes there, they might return possessed by a ciphrang. Kellhus went around with the heads of them so he's clearly done it and knows how from the Daimos he's been learning. I thought this a simple misdirection that you can't see Kellhus' POV not only because it'd give away everything but because he's now controlled by a ciphrang. A ciphrang is given a task by its master when it is forced into the world and it isn't released until it's done it's job. It will do ANYTHING to accomplish it. I think it's possible that Kosoter was taken away by the traveler and possessed by a ciphrang and that's why he simply stands there when he's taken Akka and Mimara to the library. He just sits there, waiting to die. Relieved, almost. Relieved of all his burdens and free to return to the Outside like a good little ciphrang. I definitely think that's a far out possibility but it's one I've been considering for a long time.

Still though, far more likely for me that the traveler is just a dude that came up to show Kosoter the IF and convince him to protect Mimara and Akka until they get to the library. He must have been convinced that she has the power to save their souls. With his task complete, he accepts his fate. With his reference to remembering Hell (actual Hell, not simply terrible conditions from the war) and how utterly evil he looked in the Judging Eye, there's no way he can just be a simple dude.

Madness

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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2014, 04:22:03 am »
My personal nerdanel, as I believe you call it here, is that the traveler's identity is largely irrelevant compared to his purpose.

We do ;).

I always loved my namesake and he's definitely my favourite character. I got to wondering though at some point...just what is Kosoter? The first theory I had was just that he was simply Palatine (I think?) Soter because he was a noble Veteran from the Holy War that definitely was on Team Kellhus. Then I wondered if he was one of Nascenti but they would all have powerful positions in the Ministrate and not be out killing sranc for a living. I've concluded that he was indeed just a fanatical warrior from the Unification Wars that became famous but the blasted and evil things Mimara sees in him with her Judging Eye speaks of something far darker and terrible than anything else. Achamian is clearly going to be pretty damned, certainly moreso than the Skin Eaters, whatever their histories. Surely Kosoter can't just be that much more of a dick than them as far as the gods are concerned? There had to be some other answers.

He's not Soter, though I remember when that came up on Westeros we thought he might be related to Soter somehow. And it sounds like Kellhus leading of the Holy War in TTT was simply a taste of what he might have done during the Unification Wars - ordered the original Embassy of Suicides against Kascamandri after Caraskand and again with Zeum. Plus... his other calculated atrocities during the Holy War.

I think the scene that really did it for me was when he looked at all the fire and horror of Moria 2.0 and everyone else thought they'd come to the outer precincts of Hell. He dismissed it because "if it was Hell, I would remember". At first this simply sounded like some token badass comment but Kosoter doesn't just go around making badass comments. He isn't Cnair. Instead he makes a fairly cryptic comment about Hell and it dawned on me later that maybe he is telling the truth...or thereabouts. Maybe Kellhus did indeed make his own Inverse Fire and show it to a bunch of people to utterly condition them to his cause?

(click to show/hide)

Instead, he chose Kosoter, a man that has been going on slogs since they became a thing. Why? He must have enough wealth or influence to be somewhere else? It can't simply be devotion to Kellhus that led him to do what he did and what no other men really could do. Kellhus intended for Mimara to be kept safe for a reason. He had a plan for her and Achamian).

(click to show/hide)

The total crackpot I've also been kicking around about it is the one off-reference to walking the Outside. If someone goes there, they might return possessed by a ciphrang. Kellhus went around with the heads of them so he's clearly done it and knows how from the Daimos he's been learning. I thought this a simple misdirection that you can't see Kellhus' POV not only because it'd give away everything but because he's now controlled by a ciphrang. A ciphrang is given a task by its master when it is forced into the world and it isn't released until it's done it's job. It will do ANYTHING to accomplish it. I think it's possible that Kosoter was taken away by the traveler and possessed by a ciphrang and that's why he simply stands there when he's taken Akka and Mimara to the library. He just sits there, waiting to die. Relieved, almost. Relieved of all his burdens and free to return to the Outside like a good little ciphrang. I definitely think that's a far out possibility but it's one I've been considering for a long time.

Lol +1. The only thing we could come up with to discredit this theory is that:

(click to show/hide)

Still though, far more likely for me that the traveler is just a dude that came up to show Kosoter the IF and convince him to protect Mimara and Akka until they get to the library. He must have been convinced that she has the power to save their souls. With his task complete, he accepts his fate. With his reference to remembering Hell (actual Hell, not simply terrible conditions from the war) and how utterly evil he looked in the Judging Eye, there's no way he can just be a simple dude.

You've said this twice now...

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Crtha

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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2014, 01:01:00 am »
He suggested Kellhus made his own version of the IF, not that he had access to the original.  Which seems a possibility.
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Madness

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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2014, 10:59:09 am »
Thanks, Curethan. I had misread.

Though, I think that Kellhus would use the Daimos to much the same effect as the IF.
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MrGanondorf

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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2014, 04:16:16 pm »
Thanks, Curethan. I had misread.

Though, I think that Kellhus would use the Daimos to much the same effect as the IF.

I don't understand!  Summon a demon to force others' into an IF like possession?  Stare at the demon and you will do my will?  I like the idea that Kellhus would make an IF to further enslave the 3 seas--I suppose it would be more efficient than the long-term conditioning he has to do on the principal characters.

Is Kellhus' IF the opposite of the Consult's?  It shows you the Beatific Vision to inspire all of your deeds?  Where would he keep this thing?  If it enslaves like the IF, then it would be wise to trot as many people in front of it as possible...but the so much of his control seems precarious--3 seas rebellions, the need to embargo far-callers in the ordeal.  Hm...

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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2014, 04:21:03 pm »
Well, aside from the Scarlet Spires (Daimotic Sorcerers) no one can actually see the Outside or know for sure that it exists...
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2014, 05:07:43 pm »
Well, aside from the Scarlet Spires (Daimotic Sorcerers) no one can actually see the Outside or know for sure that it exists...

Not so sure about this.  There have been a couple of references in the books that Cishaurim know what awaits in the Outside, most recently by Psatma when she is having one of her little debates with Meppa.
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MrGanondorf

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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2014, 06:45:08 pm »
Well, aside from the Scarlet Spires (Daimotic Sorcerers) no one can actually see the Outside or know for sure that it exists...

Scarlett Spires slowly progressing towards their own Inverse Fire.  TUC prediction: Kellhus disappears in the middle of a battle, Aurax laughs triumphantly in his office, Kellhus crawls out of the IF to shiv him in the dick.