So, whut up with male 'privilege'?

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Callan S.

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« on: May 02, 2013, 03:08:02 am »
I ran across this idea of 'male privilege' recently.

The idea of calling it a 'privilege' handed out to other males (which is a fallacy anyway) that they aren't rape targets seemed utterly false to me. Indeed to call it a 'privilege' seems by common standards to legitimise the sex preditor. As much as regular law is seen as legitimate and regular law hands out privileges, to call who a sex preditor will or wont rape some distribution of 'privilege' seems to legitimise the sex preditor as some governing authority as much as regular law is legitimise.

Got my reply to it deleted in responce, of course. Hopefully the admin on that other board helped rather than hindered female liberty in enacting such intellectual dishonesty.

To me, the post I replied to (I can link if you want) seemed to have women base every activity they do in life, first and foremost, around evading sexual assault. Eg, not having a ladies night because that might be fun, but a ladies night as a kind of wagon circle. Out of fear.

Is that liberty?

Yeah, as a secondary concern women might want to set up defences. But as a secondary concern, that's not making your life revolve around such things.

But when someone treats fear of sexual assault as the normalised first and foremost way a woman should think about her life - is that liberty?

And to call it male privilege - it smacks of 'just world' bias to call it privilege, as if some system is being enacted?

Or what, when I think calling it 'privilege' is legitimising the sad twisted wrecks that the predator is, am I mistaken? Sounds kind of legitimising to me? But then neuropath has the serial killer as the new rock star, so maybe I'm behind in the times?

Anyway, it seems like it's a big word around town and I remember it from the ROH run ins a bit now - so whut up with male 'privilege'? Society, I question you through your fragments!  ;D

Baztek

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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2013, 04:01:09 am »
While I certainly don't disagree with what the bulk of what a lot of these social justice warriors have to say, I've found that there is often a very dark undercurrent of distrust and anger churning beneath the surface of their discussion. Living in fear of some demographic of people is not only harmful to yourself, but the relationships you form with those around you. I understand that a lot of these feelings come from a place of hurt, but experience of horrible acts can just as easily close you up than open you up to towards others. I don't have any experience with abuse so I'm not gonna tell victims of abuse/bullying/ostracisation how to feel. But I can say from personal experience that feeding bitterness and resentment is no way to be happy in life. You will never find peace in fear.

Srancy

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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 05:55:17 am »
Everything is shit.


Kudos for trying to liven up Misc. This place has potential if we become chatterboxes.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 05:57:11 am by Srancy »

Callan S.

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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2013, 06:24:53 am »
I think I just earned my first negative karma!

Bravo anonymous person! Speak in the binary that you think in!


Baztek, yeah, I think the anger kind of evangelicises any method they use to deal with the bad shit. Criticize the method and they read you as saying not to resist the bad shit at all.

Then again I could be like that efficiency expert in Jabberwocky, who tries to show a more efficient method and then everything collapses!


Srancy - just a few more electro shock therapy applications and we can revive misc! Though I can't say this is the most fun topic. Welcome to the new forum! :)

Mike/Madness: Actually, why do we have a karma system again? Is this part of including people?

Meyna

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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2013, 11:52:21 am »
I used to think that the concept of "male privilege" was a bit kooky, but, nowadays, not so much. In the future, certain practices that are now dismissed, for example, as "boys being boys" will, in retrospect, be looked at with disgust. Riling up the "extreme", outspoken feminists and then pointing out how "extreme" their viewpoints are is strawman. In any movement, there will be extremists. In this case, where we have an issue at an active locus of cultural evolution, it can be good to have more extreme voices, as it then requires a smaller shift in that direction to get to where we "should" be.

In short, our culture is moving in a direction where "male privilege" is now ready to be seen as a problem. Soon, the issue will be grasped on a larger scale.
witness

What Came Before

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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2013, 04:18:38 pm »
I've mentioned my thoughts on the karma a couple times now, Callan. I'm personally not sure I agree with it but until enough of the members voice criticisms or I'm seriously disturbed by the treatment someone receives I'll probably leave it. Fyi, I think you just earned your first positive karma. I think the vote for Damnation was already there.

Also, I don't think the karma system is what is holding people back - I figure it an unnecessary byproduct of people waiting for the porting of the old forum content to be complete; unnecessary because I can always rearrange new topics covering the same topic matter as old and incorporate them.

By the way, for my two cents, White Male Privilege is more like a demographic than a pigment...

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2013, 09:49:56 pm »
I ran across this idea of 'male privilege' recently.

The idea of calling it a 'privilege' handed out to other males (which is a fallacy anyway)

Yes, the false premise is that everyone must be identical in every measurable respect and that if this is not so then a malevolent social structure is at fault.  This is typical of Leftists, though the current generation have taken it to insane depths.

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that they aren't rape targets seemed utterly false to me. Indeed to call it a 'privilege' seems by common standards to legitimise the sex preditor.

No, privilege is a dirty word in our society because it implies differences in value between persons. Since mass democracy runs on envy such things cannot be allowed, it will offend the malcontents who have anointed themselves spokepersons for "tha Peepul".

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Got my reply to it deleted in responce, of course. Hopefully the admin on that other board helped rather than hindered female liberty in enacting such intellectual dishonesty.

http://encyclopediadramatica.se/Hugbox

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(I can link if you want)

yes pls

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seemed to have women base every activity they do in life, first and foremost, around evading sexual assault. Eg, not having a ladies night because that might be fun, but a ladies night as a kind of wagon circle. Out of fear.

Is that liberty?

Of course not.

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Yeah, as a secondary concern women might want to set up defences. But as a secondary concern, that's not making your life revolve around such things.

But when someone treats fear of sexual assault as the normalised first and foremost way a woman should think about her life - is that liberty?

No, but it is the inevitable result of expecting them to defend themselves when they are "liberated" from the patriarchal authority of a father, brother, or husband. Another way feminism victimizes women.  At least the older generation understood that biology had to be compensated for in order to achieve equality, the current fools are convinced that biology is a hate crime and seek to suppress it, which only leaves women vulnerable before the inegalitarian reality of human nature, against which there are no longer any social and moral strictures other than threat of violent coercion by law.  Shooting the messenger, turned up to 12.


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And to call it male privilege - it smacks of 'just world' bias to call it privilege, as if some system is being enacted?

Again Callan, that is exactly what they think - everyone is the same until evil Alien Powers made us different.  They are obviously wrong, and insane, but don't look for them to change anytime soon, since this is their masturbatory pseudo-religion.

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Or what, when I think calling it 'privilege' is legitimising the sad twisted wrecks that the predator is, am I mistaken? Sounds kind of legitimising to me?

You seem to be unwise to the current purely derogatory use of "privilege" in contemporary America. In other times and places your interpretation would be valid.

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Anyway, it seems like it's a big word around town

Move. Seriously.

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and I remember it from the ROH run ins a bit now

I read little of that shit but I am not surprised.

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- so whut up with male 'privilege'?

It's a propaganda term designed to stigmatize differential conditions among persons as prima facie evidence of moral trespass and social failure, regardless of any consideration for causality (never discussed, esp. when the actions of the allgeded victim might have meaningful bearing on the "injustice" in question) or for actual merit (everyone is assumed to be equally meritorious at all times, except of course for "bigots").  Thus the fact that I do not expect to be a rape target is "male privilege", the fact that I do not expect to be frisked by cops randomly is "white privilege", the fact that I expect to be able vote when Felipe the lawn care guy from the Yucatan cannot is also "white privilege", the fact that I can walk around in public without people misjudging my gender is "cis privilege", the fact that I can marry someone from the gender I find sexy is "straight privilege", etc. ad nauseum.   
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 09:54:48 pm by EkyannusIII »
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Baztek

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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 11:06:26 pm »
While we're no doubt in agreement of the graver faults of social justice people, let's not forget the other side of the spectrum: Men's Right Activists, who are exactly the type of hideously creepy, entitled, suburban whitebread persecution-card-waving twats that feminists rail against.

This might be construed as sexist, but I find something inherently more vile and predatory about hate speech coming out of the mouths of these neanderthals than feminists. Their condemnations of the feminist movement are so sexually charged as opposed to their counterparts that it really unsettles me in a very deep way. Instead of working on themselves as human beings and taking rejection in stride, they retreat into their little circlejerk cocoons on reddit and demonize women for not wanting to fuck them. They've also assimilated a lot of the other more vocal young male groups into themselves, so essentially reddit is becoming one gigantic atheist racist misogynist shitpile. I'm being hyperbolic of course but no one can deny these communities are growing more vocal by the day.

The extreme views of one side fuels the extreme views of another, so I think it behooves us all as a species to take a step back from all this bullshit and take a deep breath.

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2013, 11:23:37 pm »
While we're no doubt in agreement of the graver faults of social justice people, let's not forget the other side of the spectrum: Men's Right Activists, who are exactly the type of hideously creepy, entitled, suburban whitebread persecution-card-waving twats that feminists rail against.

Cheerfully granted, they are an unappealing group of people whatever the justice of their complaints.


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This might be construed as sexist, but I find something inherently more vile and predatory about hate speech coming out of the mouths of these neanderthals than feminists.

It is sexist but it isn't a problem for me, MRAs are dangerous in themselves, feminists are only dangerous (as opposed to amusing) because they have men to enforce their doctrines for them.  This is true for any feminist issue including abortion (kept legal because some men find it convenient for themselves and because some like to play White Knight over the matter; if only women supported abortion it wold never have been legalized). 


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Their condemnations of the feminist movement are so sexually charged as opposed to their counterparts that it really unsettles me in a very deep way. Instead of working on themselves as human beings and taking rejection in stride, they retreat into their little circlejerk cocoons on reddit and demonize women for not wanting to fuck them.


Yes this is very true.


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They've also assimilated a lot of the other more vocal young male groups into themselves,

That's because some of their criticisms have objective merit, despite the loathsomeness of the critics in question.  This is what you would expect: some people are marginal, and some are central, and when a society begins to fail system-wide the marginals will be hurt first, and thus be the first to formulate an ideology of self-defense and anger.  The test of MRA ideas will come when they are appealing to men who aren't losers but who are rather merely mediocre, the sort who can't win in the sexual marketplace without some social stabilizing factors in much the same way that middle class / working class people can't win in the economic marketplace (sorry for the pleonasm there) without some stabilizing laws and institutions.  In my opinion the growing popularity of the MRA narrative you are seeing is a sign that this is happening. The next 10-20 years will tell for sure.


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The extreme views of one side fuels the extreme views of another, so I think it behooves us all as a species to take a step back from all this bullshit and take a deep breath.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, and I mean that since I was expecting the first response to be a hysterical flame and was pleased to get something thoughtful and honest instead, but we absolutely do not need to backoff because the issues that are being fought over are fundamental and require decision, not conciliation.  Take, again, abortion: if feminists are right, then allowing abortion to be illegal everywhere is tantamount to allowing sexual slavery for the purposes of procreation; but if the pro-lifers are right, then allowing abortion anywhere is tantamount to allowing state-sanctioned baby murder.  There is no room for a third position here, one can only choose.  The democratic state we are used to considering normal is not good at this kind of political activity, and so the pressure to make a definitive choice keeps building, on this and on other core issues.  When the pressure explodes will it be less destructive than what might have come about under other circumstances? That to me is not clear at all.

Thank you again for the thoughtful and sincere reply.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Baztek

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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2013, 12:16:54 am »
I'm not going to pretend like I've done any formal academic study of gender relations, so I will leave it to the people who have to continue responding. I'm only offering my two cents on these movements based on what I have gleaned of them on message boards, which obviously skews the sample size towards the extreme ends of the spectrum, but still reflects the really toxic hate and anger that seems to be fuel these issues.

I wish that every bitter feminist could realize that not all men are bad, and that every disgusting MRA redditor could take efforts to improve himself and not shame an entire gender for every instance of perceived (or actual) rejection, but that's just silly wishful thinking. The best I can do as an uneducated bystander and spiritual layperson, is to be mindful of how I am influenced by the biases of either side, and to wish peace for those who continue to suffer.

Your post really made me think, so I will continue to follow this thread. Cheers.

Callan S.

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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2013, 01:24:42 am »
I used to think that the concept of "male privilege" was a bit kooky, but, nowadays, not so much. In the future, certain practices that are now dismissed, for example, as "boys being boys" will, in retrospect, be looked at with disgust. Riling up the "extreme", outspoken feminists and then pointing out how "extreme" their viewpoints are is strawman. In any movement, there will be extremists. In this case, where we have an issue at an active locus of cultural evolution, it can be good to have more extreme voices, as it then requires a smaller shift in that direction to get to where we "should" be.

In short, our culture is moving in a direction where "male privilege" is now ready to be seen as a problem. Soon, the issue will be grasped on a larger scale.
To me calling it 'Privilege' is like if the mafia demanded protection money from business A but not from business B and business A went on to say business B is 'priviledged'! No, they aren't - it's crime!! Not privilege!

Indeed I would even say calling it 'privilege' is the new 'boys will be boys'. It's still advocating for it, just to a lesser extent than 'boys will be boys' does.

Maybe it's a mid phase term. Eventually 'male privilege' will be looked upon with disgust as well. And I'm on the suck end of 'ahead of their time'.


Anyway, here's the list someone gave in the thread I'm talking about, which just seems to propergate the idea that women's first thoughts about anything aught to be fear. Rather than having fun and enjoying life (with perhaps the secondary or even tertiary concern of self defence against broken brained people).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 02:02:21 am by Callan S. »

Callan S.

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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2013, 01:37:08 am »
It is sexist but it isn't a problem for me, MRAs are dangerous in themselves, feminists are only dangerous (as opposed to amusing) because they have men to enforce their doctrines for them.
How so? Are you refering to the police force being mostly male?

It almost seems like you're painting a necessary position for males? I'm sure an entirely female police force could enforce the doctrines just as much. Violence is that easy (that's why we have child soldiers in various parts of the world - it's easy)

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This is true for any feminist issue including abortion (kept legal because some men find it convenient for themselves and because some like to play White Knight over the matter; if only women supported abortion it wold never have been legalized). 
You seem to have painted men who support abortion as only coming in two stripes - selfish convenients and white knights?

And here I am shooting myself in the foot a second time by questioning both camps...


Baztek: I'm not sure all MRA members must be bad (just as much as I'm sure alot of ROH people are just concerned people). I see some court systems act as if were about a hundred years ago where if the woman was divorced she'd have to go become a washerwoman, even when the woman is currently employed in a job at much the same level as the man she was previously married to.

I know a story of a woman, aggrieved at her boyfriend, chasing him through the house with a pair of scissors in her hands. He locked his bedroom door then jumped out the window.

Now I laugh at that. And so did the woman who told me.

But that's not actually right, is it? I wasn't right to laugh, really. Because if a man was chasing a woman with scissors we'd all have deadly serious faces on.

There are issues. But we have movies where it's still just funny when a man is kicked in the balls, etc.

I totally pay it's not as big an issue as sexism toward women (in my estimate) is. But I think if men aren't treated as having rights, then they will be less inclined to treat anyone else as having rights (definately less inclined to treat someone else as having more rights than them). Males not seeing themselves as being worth protecting might be a big issue - if we only care about it because how they will latter act toward women, because of their self esteem problems.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 01:51:04 am by Callan S. »

Baztek

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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2013, 02:05:33 am »
Face it Callan, violent offenders are predominantly male. I worked security at a club and, guess what, 99% of the fights were started by dudebros. Anecdotal might not count for much but I think you're being willfully ignorant if you think hypermasculinity and the entitlement it comes with has not contributed to this violence-saturated culture. We're reading a fantasy series where even the author repeatedly muses about how his fictional rape monsters are only one evolutionary rung down from men, for goodness' sakes. My point is, while I don't think every white guy whose had it easy is some demonic taskmaster for the patriarchy, it is ridiculous to assume that there isn't an abyssal disparity in the way women are perceived compared to men (not saying you are, but there are who do).

Despite how infuriating I might find the attitude of some feminists, I still am a member of the gender that by an enormous margin has produced the most child molesters, serial killers, mass murderers, sick bastards etc. I'm not kidding when I say TSA had a lot to do with it, since Bakker's view of male sexuality is so fucking dark. I mean shit, look at bronies, who sexualize characters created for little girls. Little girls. The worst of these guys masturbate to completion over ponies stylized as young girls. Let that sink in. There's something so loathsome and foul about that that the only thing I can do is denounce extreme feminists for their venom, because while I may not agree with everything they say, I never want to have my statements misconstrued as a defense of MRAs.

I'm probably wrong about some of the figures I stated, but I do know that I'm not alone in my feelings. I've stared too long into the abyss to not agree with guys like Bakker and feminists who believe some men can be manipulative and spiteful little creatures, but their tone is entirely the wrong way to go about it because it paints an entire gender with one brushstroke.

Quote from: Callan S.
I know a story of a woman, aggrieved at her boyfriend, chasing him through the house with a pair of scissors in her hands. He locked his bedroom door then jumped out the window.

Not to get personal, but I was in a very brief relationship with a woman prone to extremely violent outbursts. I only got a few slaps and loogies in my face for my trouble, but her next boyfriend she stabbed. The difference here is if I laid a hand on her I could have probably very seriously injured her, while that might not have been the case in reverse. Men can physically overpower women, so I'm not so inclined to start the waterworks for some poor 200 lb. guy who got chased around the house by a girl half his size. There are definitely outliers but we're not talking outliers here.

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I totally pay it's not as big an issue as sexism toward women (in my estimate) is. But I think if men aren't treated as having rights, then they will be less inclined to treat anyone else as having rights (definately less inclined to treat someone else as having more rights than them). Males not seeing themselves as being worth protecting might be a big issue - if we only care about it because how they will latter act toward women, because of their self esteem problems.

I absolutely totally agree that if you subconsciously operate on the assumption every man you meet is out to get you, it will show, and that will turn people off from you, thereby feeding that hateful world view and fostering a very vicious cycle.





« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 02:40:08 am by Baztek »

Callan S.

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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2013, 03:46:23 am »
Baztek, you're telling me to face up to something, then you're telling me a lesson about painting an entire gender with one brushstroke. When I said MRA probably aren't all bad/don't all need the one brush stroke (though I'd pay that likely the moderate ones might quit being a member after being put off by the extremists, thus making MRA have more extremists, so if you want to argue that, I'll take that on the chin)

I suspect nature uses males as the research and development sex - badly put together (particularly mentally), on the off chance a badly put together combination is effective in the environment.

But I think self esteem issues underly alot of male problems. But maybe you're right and it's all hard wired and there's not a jot to be done about 90% of it. I really hope not, but maybe you're right on that. However, I'm putting my chips on self esteem issues for 90% (the other 10% seems to slide into sociopathy)

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Not to get personal, but I was in a very brief relationship with a woman prone to extremely violent outbursts. I only got a few slaps and loogies in my face for my trouble, but her next boyfriend she stabbed. The difference here is if I laid a hand on her I could have probably very seriously injured her, while that might not have been the case in reverse. Men can physically overpower women, so I'm not so inclined to start the waterworks for some poor 200 lb. guy who got chased around the house by a girl half his size.
This is your story, your life. But to me, you were a victim of domestic violence - and you covered it up. Normalised it. Maybe because you feel your supposed to be tough - not sensitive, not able to be hurt, not soft. Ie, none of the attributes we often associate with women. Because it'd be bad to sensitive...or something.

You talk about guys at a club causing fights - with my hypothesis, what if they were allowed to nuture a sensitive side, a soft side to themselves during their formative years? If they could develop such a side to themselves, would we see the number of fights plummet?

Or is it the role of men to be tough? To be spat upon and slapped and take it like a man? To take it like we don't deserve better than that (unless we become powerful, of course. Who spits in a kings face, eh? Or a CEO's?)?

Has mother nature set out to make us empty inside? And to keep each other empty as well?

I'd tackle 'men can overcome women' (and say it's merely a question of who is more psychotic, rather than some sort of formal test of strength. A bread knife between the ribs is enough - if the woman gives you the chance to wrestle, it's because she did not really intend to kill you, not because men can overcome women. A child with a breadknife could kill an adult, for petes sake!), but I feel I've been pretty controversial already.

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I absolutely totally agree that if you subconsciously operate on the assumption every man you meet is out to get you, it will show, and that will turn people off from you, thereby feeding that hateful world view and fostering a very vicious cycle.
I'm not really talking about a womans POV, but a mans point of view, in regards as to whether he's worth something. Past all the jokes and posturing, I think if a survey looked into it, a terrible amount of men don't feel they have much self worth. The worst cases tend towards violence as a way of taking self worth by force.

I say this in a slightly misandrist way though, because raising mens self esteem is more like just a means to an end rather than the end itself. The end being a more liberated society for women, by making a society that has fewer men driven psychotic by self worth issues.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 03:50:27 am by Callan S. »

What Came Before

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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2013, 03:50:48 am »
Lol. Baztek, this is what formal academic seminars of gender studies in literature, politics, or history are like, or worse.

The minority of individuals are privileged and intelligent. Few people in the world actually use the internet (10%?). Fewer people use the internet to (mostly) generously debate their favorite topics with an intellectual and authentic disposition.

The fact that you even understand the word spectrum and use it in this context is representative of salient communication, unavailable to the majority, for a variety of reasons (diet, upbringing, genetics, etc).

White Male Privilege is just the dominant narrative of the times... a moment or a history, it's been different and it will be again. Unless we engage we're simply those who narrate.

Callan, not intending to further Baztek's descriptive point, per say, how do you respond to the simple statistic that most violent offenders are male?