[What Came Before]

Perhaps Cleric knows that Mek told him about the inverse fire, but perhaps he did not believe it. 

Perhaps it is something similar to Seswatha's heart as we've speculated, but Cleric realized this and knew what it did to the Consult and thus didn't want anyone else looking at it.

If this is the case, than Shae's response would make some sense from the perspective of someone who had looked into the IF.  Shae, having had looked at it, cannot conceive of anyone who doesn't get it, so he believes that Cleric must be lying.  But perhaps Cleric simply still could assess in a way that one who has looked into the IF could not.

[Garet Jax]

Death by cop/Akka in my opinion.


He recognizes Akka as Seswatha and Mimara as his long dead wife.  The battle with Wutteat makes him remember these things.


He empties his pouch, so that Sewatha and his wife will burn and consume him, because he loves them.


They need strength on their journey ahead.

[Wilshire]

Very nice GJ. I like this.

[SilentRoamer]

GJ I read that the same as you except in I may see erraticism differently.

I don't think he recognised Akka + Mim as Ses + Wife. I think the trauma of Wutteat allowed him to recognise himself and at the moment before he died he was actually an Intact.

[Garet Jax]

p.579 WLW Hardcover first edition

"Once again they sit knee to knee, as father and daughter.  Once again they taste the other's finger. But this time the ash is more white than black, and the strength that shivers through them has a more melancholy tenor..."

This part also makes me curious.  Why the change?  Is it due to the length of time Nil'giccas was wandering and gathering sins?  Is it the possibility that he "sacrificed" himself for others as I postulated above?


Any thoughts?

[SilentRoamer]

My post wasnt entirely clear GJ. I agree with you to some extent, I think Nil'giccas saw Ses and Wife in Akka and Mim. I just think at the end he knew who they were and knew who he was and for that moment he was Intact as he died. I don't imagine an Erratics ashes would be melancholic, I believe an Intacts would.

GJ I definetely think you are right on attributing a sacrifice to some residual affection for Ses and Wife, death by Akka, Nil'giccas had Akka overmatched in my opinion and he wasn't even singing Wards...

[Francis Buck]

Death by cop/Akka in my opinion.


He recognizes Akka as Seswatha and Mimara as his long dead wife.  The battle with Wutteat makes him remember these things.


He empties his pouch, so that Sewatha and his wife will burn and consume him, because he loves them.


They need strength on their journey ahead.

That's my current interpretation as well, along with SilentRoamers note on Cleric seeing Mim and Akka as representations of the people he'd lost (thus making him, in the end, truly remember). I definitely think the dispensation of the qirri was premeditated as well.

[Cüréthañ]

Cleric says he will die when they enter the Coffers.
If anything, he might be short circuiting his erratic tendencies - but I really believe his death is part of Mimara's conditioned path. 
Some facts that are inconsistent with attempted erratic betrayal. 
- He warns Akka what he is about to do and doesn't defend himself. 
- He remembers Mimara's name and becomes NG without killing her, much earlier. 
- Seswatha never had a wife.
- He seems to expect Wutteat's presence and doesn't react at all when Akka reveals his motive to retrieve the map.
- Last 'sermon' can be read as describing the dunyain and his intent to spend his life to destroy the Consult.

Clerics actions throughout TJE and WLW are far too deliberate to be the haphazard meandering of an erratic.
From his insinuation amongst the Skin Eaters, his manipulations that ensure they go through Cil Aujis - also his sure memories of critical information, his use and distribution of Qirri and his relationship with Mimara, there are deep and clear signals that he is much more than a lost erratic.

He is probably very close to losing it though, I think and knows that the Qirri can't keep him from full blown erraticism for much longer.  For me, Cleric believes he has achieved something very important by delivering DA and AM to the coffers and chooses to end his life there.

[Garet Jax]

- Seswatha never had a wife.

Not sure if that was directed at me.  But, just for the sake of clarity, (which my post wasn't full of) I meant that Mimara reminds Cleric of Cleric's wife and not Seswatha's non existent wife.

[Cüréthañ]

Kinda, I guess... you made me think of it anyway.
Only mentioned because, in text, Cleric always calls Akka 'Seswatha' and tells him to go save his 'wife and child' (refering to Mimara) when they face the Wracu.

[mrganondorf]

Could be pretty cool if Seswatha had a wife and has hidden her from the dreams and history books.  There's speculation elsewhere that Seswatha impregnated as much of Nron as he could manage.  Maybe we'll get some freaky dream scene in TUC where Seswatha finds out that his wife has the judging eye!  Could Cleric be thinking of Nau-Cayuti's mom as Seswatha's wife?

Not long before Cleric snuffs it, he says "'We are Many!' the Erratic roared.  'We are legion!  What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability!  A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One."

If Cleric is telling the truth (huge if), I wonder what it would mean for Earwan metaphysics.  That a soul be one seems necessary for things like a Wathi doll, but maybe Kellhus sees this and knows it's an illusion, is able to do more amazing things with animata because he doesn't rely on the principle that souls are one.

Cleric's quote also seems neat because it seems to mirror the whole Bakkerverse what with god being a million warring pieces.  The soul is isomorphic with the whole a la Plato!

Also reminded of Serwa's bit about having 2 souls.

[Cüréthañ]

Remember in Kellhus' training flashbacks he masters his 'legion'?

And somewhere Akka links what he knows of the dunyain to Nonman mystery cults.

The dunyain super-powers are the result of being fully present in every moment and clearly get their superbuff from the metaphysics that allow some individuals to 'see' and affect beyond the limits of physical perception.

[mrganondorf]

Remember in Kellhus' training flashbacks he masters his 'legion'?

And somewhere Akka links what he knows of the dunyain to Nonman mystery cults.

The dunyain super-powers are the result of being fully present in every moment and clearly get their superbuff from the metaphysics that allow some individuals to 'see' and affect beyond the limits of physical perception.

You make me wonder what a Nonman would be like if he had Dunyain training!  Hell, maybe that's what they are doing in Ishterebinth anyways and the original Dunyain got all their methods from Nil'giccas and co.  Wonder if, on a long enough timeline, Kellhus would succumb in the same manner as Cleric?

[Wilshire]

Might it be the other way around: that the Dunyain's mastery of the 'legion' within the self allows erratics to become Intact?

[mrganondorf]

That would be an amazing bargaining chip.  But, would it mostly sway the Intact who could be succumbing?  The Erratics, their minds are so fucked, would they know to desire the Dunyain method?

Wilshire, if what you say is true, the Dunyain just have to be a Seswatha project to get the last Nonmen to help fighting Golgotterath.  S doesn't know how to do it, but he knows if he sends so monks up into the mountains and let them work on the problem for a few millenia, they will eventually learn how to heal an Erratic.

On that subject, Erratics get that way from having too much experience.  So the 'cure' could have something to do with purging their minds of most of what they know to have a coherent self and room on the hard drive to sustain them until another reset.