The False Sun

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H

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« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2015, 04:38:50 pm »
Welcome H,

Think I seen you around as .H. on westeros?

I always thought the Consult seemed to mock the idea of "finding oblivion" as if they thought this was just a Nonman myth. Shae and Aurang definitely seemed to be mocking Titirgas understanding of damnation.
That's me, yeah, mostly a lurker there though too.

They seem to mock him, but they also seem to be pretty certain.  It seems that perhaps they can see in the Inverse Fire all the Nonmen who thought they were reaching oblivion actually aren't?

Well not all of you made it to here, so I stand by my previous welcoming :). Great profile picture btw, where did you get that from?

Actually, I didn't connect the mirror between Void and Outside, but I like that quite a bit.

I meant Salvation by closing the world from the gods and therefore forever escaping damnation, rather than some kind of redemptive steps to cleanse their souls. I was unclear.

I made the picture in Photoshop a long, long time ago, for the Three-Seas board, actually, haha.

I actually hadn't even thought of the mirroring of the Void and Outside until I started typing up my response, but it seemed to fit, so I went with it.

As for Salvation, I understood.  I was just being a bit more clear myself.  I'm not sure how this really fits in with Kellhus though.  My guess is that at some point he sees the Inverse Fire, then what?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #76 on: March 12, 2015, 04:46:01 pm »
I figured as much. At first I thought it was just a direct copy from TDTCB cover, but realized that the text doesn't surround the building thing. A coloration of the chapter headers then. Either way, very cool.

As for Kellhus, "then what" is pretty much as far as it goes. I think some common suggestions are: save everyone, save himself, become a god, seal the world from the gods, get everyone killed, join the consult, destroy the consult, steal/use/learn the Tekne,  become a self moving soul, or some combination of those things.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #77 on: March 12, 2015, 05:05:48 pm »
I figured as much. At first I thought it was just a direct copy from TDTCB cover, but realized that the text doesn't surround the building thing. A coloration of the chapter headers then. Either way, very cool.

Come to think of it, I think the colored version of the Temple came from the Three-Seas board itself.  Hard to remember, it was about 10 years ago...wow, that's a long time...

As for Kellhus, "then what" is pretty much as far as it goes. I think some common suggestions are: save everyone, save himself, become a god, seal the world from the gods, get everyone killed, join the consult, destroy the consult, steal/use/learn the Tekne,  become a self moving soul, or some combination of those things.
My  memory is a little foggy on this, but has anyone ever seen the Inverse Fire and not joined the Consult?  Did Seswatha actually see it?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2015, 05:14:50 pm »
Yeah one of the Nonmen explicitely said they saw it I thought, Nil'Giccas maybe, and didn't join.

Seswatha is speculated to have seen it, but no outright proof that he did.

But im clearly foggy as well. Other's know things more clearly than I, but are harder to find :P.

I figured as much. At first I thought it was just a direct copy from TDTCB cover, but realized that the text doesn't surround the building thing. A coloration of the chapter headers then. Either way, very cool.

Come to think of it, I think the colored version of the Temple came from the Three-Seas board itself.  Hard to remember, it was about 10 years ago...wow, that's a long time...
We call you folks Old Names for a reason.
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« Reply #79 on: March 12, 2015, 05:32:08 pm »
Yeah one of the Nonmen explicitely said they saw it I thought, Nil'Giccas maybe, and didn't join.

Seswatha is speculated to have seen it, but no outright proof that he did.

But im clearly foggy as well. Other's know things more clearly than I, but are harder to find :P.

I'm not sure.  Nin’janjin saw it and he was the one who they first made immortal, thus strating the Womb-Plague.  Nil’giccas (Cleric) I don't recall having read that he had seen it.

I'm curious because we don't know how resistible what it shows is...

Perhaps it is something that actually alters the brain on a physiological level though, a la, something from Neuropath?

We call you folks Old Names for a reason.

Time flies when you are waiting for books I guess?  Haha
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #80 on: March 12, 2015, 06:06:38 pm »
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2015, 07:53:56 pm »
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.

I can try to look some up when I am home later, but I'm really not sure.

If we consider that there is a way to resist the Inverse Fire (seems plausible), I'd guess that Kellhus would be the one able to do it.  Whether or not he wants to is another story though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

The Sharmat

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« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2015, 10:22:30 pm »
I don't think Aurang and Shae rejected Titirga's alleged solution because it wasn't good enough. I think they rejected it because it doesn't work. They seem to believe that the "slip between the Gods and find Oblivion" thing is bullshit, and you're damned anyway. You can't slip through the cracks. You can't hide your voice. This is perhaps what so shocked the Nonmen that found the Inverse Fire in the Ark. Their out wasn't an out at all.

The Consult's strategy is attaining oblivion, I think. Through the No-God. When the No-God walks, and the world is reduced to 144,000, souls cannot pass successfully to the Outside. So they just die. No more. Gone.

Yeah, Aurang and co would prefer to just live forever. But over an infinite span of time, clinically immortal or not, your chances of dying somehow approach 100%. And only the Outside is apparently timeless and eternal, so even 100,000 years of hedonism isn't much of a trade for an eternity of torment.

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« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2015, 12:07:24 am »
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.

i think it was Nil'giccas who ordered Mekeritrig and 2 others to go look at it and then report back?

@ H - that is neet-so looking into the IF basically swept away the nonman religion?  another thing to make them crazy!

where are your pictures!!! want to see!

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« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2015, 12:38:10 pm »
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.

i think it was Nil'giccas who ordered Mekeritrig and 2 others to go look at it and then report back?

@ H - that is neet-so looking into the IF basically swept away the nonman religion?  another thing to make them crazy!

where are your pictures!!! want to see!

I still can't find any references to if Seswatha saw the Inverse Fire or not.  Nor can I find if Nau-Cayûti actually saw it.

I think it was part of the plan that the Inverse Fire would drive the Nonmen to their side.

As for pictures, I'm not sure what you mean.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2015, 12:48:21 pm »
lol, i was reading too fast and thought you said you photoshopped something Bakker something--but it was your avatar you were talking about!  sorry!

p.s. i don't think it says anywhere that Ses or NC did see the IF, it would just be hella-interesting

maybe the IF was how the Consult convinced Ieva to poison NC?

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« Reply #86 on: March 16, 2015, 01:13:21 pm »
lol, i was reading too fast and thought you said you photoshopped something Bakker something--but it was your avatar you were talking about!  sorry!

p.s. i don't think it says anywhere that Ses or NC did see the IF, it would just be hella-interesting

maybe the IF was how the Consult convinced Ieva to poison NC?

Not a problem, I thought that was you were referring to, but wasn't sure.  I have zero actual artistic ability to create anything new.

I believe it was absolutely how they convinced Iëva, no doubt at all.  The question is, what had she done that the Fire showed her damned?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2015, 01:19:03 pm »
Either showed her the IF or promised her some funtime on Aurangs "magic stick".

I have said this before but if the Outside is actually timeless (in the deterministic sense) and all of subjective reality exists as an instant (as per the WLW's perspective) then when you look into the IF you see your collective experience on Earwa at the moment your soul passes to the Outside. So in this instance the poisoning of NC may have damned her in the future, so when she looks at the IF in the past she sees her damnation as already existent. Timelessness of the Outside and all that.

Sort of similar how a Black hole cannot collapse under its own reference frame.


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« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2015, 01:38:48 pm »
Well, perhaps, but I think there is something more pragmatic at hand.

She was constantly referred to as his "first wife" and we already know full well how much he risks to save his concubine.  I have doubts she was probably too pleased by that...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2015, 07:44:59 pm »
Do we know for sure if any of the characters in WLW know about the Inverse Fire? Is it possible that they could just blunder into it?