[Francis Buck]

One thing that I think is important, but hasn't really been discussed (that I've seen) is the fact that Celmomas doesn't seem to know that Seswatha went with Nau into Golgotterath. Now, you could chalk this up to the idea that King Cel is just losing it as he dies, but I doubt it. We're specifically being deprived of information about that event (the journey into Golgotterath), and I personally think there's way more to it. We know Nau got pissed with Ses about being brought there, and the implication I got was that it was under false pretenses. I absolutely believe that Seswatha is playing a "bigger game" than everyone realizes. He wanted to get into Golgotterath for a very specific reason, and I don't think it was to save the chick Nau loved. He wanted something else.

I personally think Ses saw the Inverse Fire, and realized he was damned for being a sorcerer. Even so, he hated the Consult enough that he would never join them. He had a "better plan", at least in his own eyes.

Ultimately though, I think the important question is, why Nau-Cayuti? Why did Seswatha lead him into Golgotterath? Why would the Consult prize him so much as to use him for the basis of the No-God?

[Cüréthañ]

I was thinking of the prophecy from the Consult's perspective.  There is nothing in it about actually preventing the apocalypse.  Just that his seed will return at the end of the world as harbinger (not saviour) and Seswatha will be there too.  Quite heartening for the bad guys really.

FB, they were supposedly there for the heron spear.  Speaking of which, never mind the grafting tech of the tekne for now, what could Kellhus do if he got the chance to reverse engineer the Inchie weapons of light?

[Madness]

One thing that I think is important, but hasn't really been discussed (that I've seen) is the fact that Celmomas doesn't seem to know that Seswatha went with Nau into Golgotterath. Now, you could chalk this up to the idea that King Cel is just losing it as he dies, but I doubt it. We're specifically being deprived of information about that event (the journey into Golgotterath), and I personally think there's way more to it. We know Nau got pissed with Ses about being brought there, and the implication I got was that it was under false pretenses. I absolutely believe that Seswatha is playing a "bigger game" than everyone realizes. He wanted to get into Golgotterath for a very specific reason, and I don't think it was to save the chick Nau loved. He wanted something else.

I personally think Ses saw the Inverse Fire, and realized he was damned for being a sorcerer. Even so, he hated the Consult enough that he would never join them. He had a "better plan", at least in his own eyes.

Ultimately though, I think the important question is, why Nau-Cayuti? Why did Seswatha lead him into Golgotterath? Why would the Consult prize him so much as to use him for the basis of the No-God?

I don't disagree with your overarching theme, FB - but obviously having the Heron Spear was a wise choice and most of the interactions from the Dreams involve having the Spear, not having it, where is it, etc.

As for the bold, Nau-Cayuti was part of the generation that grew up with the Apocalypse and is the first greatest hero in that generation. Even after he dies, it's his mead buddies who manage to be able to defeat the Consult - not any other randoms. He's important because he's a threat, apparently. And he might know the location of the Heron Spear (I've never been on board the Nau-Cayuti-Golden Room-Making the No-God train that took off from Westeros).

Speaking of which, never mind the grafting tech of the tekne for now, what could Kellhus do if he got the chance to reverse engineer the Inchie weapons of light?

Maybe he'll go full inspector gadget .

Or Tanks and Helicopters were always good thoughts. Though, I like my Synthese/v. Iron Man idea.

[Francis Buck]

Derp, forgot about the Heron Spear. Regardless I still think some very important and unexpected shit went down the during that event beyond stealing the spear (namely Seswatha seeing the IF).

Here's a question - what if Achamian has a dream of Seswatha looking into the IF? Does it have the same affect "second-hand", so to speak?

[Madness]

Here's a question - what if Achamian has a dream of Seswatha looking into the IF? Does it have the same affect "second-hand", so to speak?

I don't think so. But I could see this as being the cypher of Seswatha's life. Only the Mandati whose life most resembles Seswatha's (Achamian PON as discoverer of Anasurimbor) gets access to "other" Dreams. I think seeing the IF through the dreamlike gauze of the Grasping's Dreams would make it much easier to doubt the IF.

[locke]

I don't think so. But I could see this as being the cypher of Seswatha's life. Only the Mandati whose life most resembles Seswatha's (Achamian PON as discoverer of Anasurimbor) gets access to "other" Dreams

So you're saying that Achamian is Virimsata? (or would it be Seswatha is the virimsata that replaces Achamian.

[Madness]

You'll have to explain your connotations some more, lockesnow - I'm not sure we have the same understanding of viramsata?

[locke]

Seswatha has made a games of truth.  He tells lies about who said what to whom, about who makes love to whomever, and so on.  He does this every night.  And what is more Seswatha is at pains to act out the lies told by himself every night, especially when they are traumatic, so they might make them true.  and so it goes from Seswatha to Mandati to Seswatha until no distinction remains between what is a lie and what is true.   In the end his lies become viramsata, his soul is a living things and the mandate were his battle plain, the ground his breath stood upon.

a lie that has conquered and reproduced over the centuries.  A great thoughtless beast that takes the souls of Men as its ground.

[Madness]

If I'm to stretch, I can see Achamian as being described in such a manner by extension.

To what end?

[Francis Buck]

I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah. He's a lie made flesh (which is how he himself describes the Umiaki event). Because of the nature of Earwa's metaphysics, these things become true when so many people genuinely believe it to be so. He's a phony until he isn't. That's why he seems "insane" to someone like Moenghus -- in reality though, Kellhus just realized that the lie he was telling had become real.

[Madness]

Virimsata at its root is a useful metaphor for culture. The Nilnameshi are simply acting out their culture explicitly, albeit semi-consciously, where the rest of the world does so blindly. This is the lesson of Viramsata. It's the To Be/To Act metaphor of the PON writ large across Fanimry and Inrithism.

But as I said, I think locke can use it in the method employed but I also think FB's metaphoric descriptions is kosher. The whole lie made flesh moment at the Umiaki though, always seemed to me about Kellhus communicating to Cnaiur about Sarcellus, who was a major player in fucking with Kellhus at Caraskand, obviously, as the Consult would deal with threats.

[Wilshire]

I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah. He's a lie made flesh (which is how he himself describes the Umiaki event). Because of the nature of Earwa's metaphysics, these things become true when so many people genuinely believe it to be so. He's a phony until he isn't. That's why he seems "insane" to someone like Moenghus -- in reality though, Kellhus just realized that the lie he was telling had become real.

Agree with this perspective. There isn't much useless world building, and this ties it quite nicely into the main plot. Yeah it is a general metaphor for culture IRL but its got to have some meaning for TSA for it to be included in the book, and I think this is it.

[Madness]

Culture in the books is supposed to be an expression of culture in real life, I think?

I don't actually disagree with FB, necessarily.

Need moar DATA!

[Duskweaver]

Virimsata at its root is a useful metaphor for culture.

*Nods* Bakker's description of Viramsata is (IIRC) almost word-for-word Dawkins' description of memes.

[Wilshire]

Virimsata at its root is a useful metaphor for culture.

*Nods* Bakker's description of Viramsata is (IIRC) almost word-for-word Dawkins' description of memes.

That is a brilliant point.