His PROOF...

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locke

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« on: May 08, 2013, 05:47:28 pm »
Everyone knows that Cnaiur uses Serwe as his prize, his proof.  His proof that he is Scylvendi.  His proof that he is heterosexual.

But have you ever noticed that Serwe becomes Kellhus' proof as well?  She's his proof that he is a God. 


EkyannusIII

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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 08:24:40 pm »
But have you ever noticed that Serwe becomes Kellhus' proof as well?  She's his proof that he is a God.

You mean to himself? The rest of the Three Seas seems to need no such proof, having many others at hand.



Quote
Everyone knows that Cnaiur uses Serwe as his prize, his proof.  His proof that he is Scylvendi.  His proof that he is heterosexual.

I always thought Cnaiur's "homosexuality" was overblown.  He is attracted to one man (Papa Moe) or arguably two (also Kellhus, who is apparently shockingly like Moe in appearence) in a lifetime, in which he otherwise finds time to rape innumerable women (all presumably attractive) and marry IIRC four wives, one of which, Anissi, he is repeatedly stated to genuinely love enough to reveal his shame too.  That sounds less like a homosexual than a man who was sweet-talked into buttsex he wouldn't have otherwise been interested in while still a vulnerable adolescent.

In some ways I think the Dunyain's suppression of emotion impairs their interaction with mundanes in more ways than we realize.  If Moe wanted to own Cnaiur, all he had to do was offer himself as a surrogate father figure rather than a seducer; the effect in Moe's favor would have been the same, and he would have been able to go back to Cnaiur for more help as needed since Cnaiur wouldn't hate him (imagine if Cnaiur ended up becoming King-of-Tribes and received orders from Moe to submit himself to Kellhus along with the entire Scylvendi nation to prosecute the Holy War...).  He even could have used most of the other strategies he employed (e.g. the trackless plains metaphor).  But no, Moe has to go for the quick and dirty (literally in this case) fix.  Same thing with the swazond on his arms.  He could have been ridden to the borders of the steppe by Scylvendi he controlled, but he had to mark himself and then deal with the unforseen consequences.

Kellhus does the same thing with Akka over Esmenet.  Akka probably cannot defeat Kellhus, but he could have served him, and instead Kellhus goes and blows that all on the absurd premise that Esmi is the smartest woman he is going to meet in the Three Seas.  How is making enemies unnnecessarily the Shortest Path?

On the basis of these examples I think the Dunyain's lack of empathy impairs their ability to adequately cognize the long-term consequences of emotional manipulation.  Perhaps they cannot imagine that people have difficulty "getting over it" since this is plainly no problem for them...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 08:30:06 pm by EkyannusIII »
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 11:02:43 pm »
His proof of being a god? No, he doesn't need some dumb hot chick walking behind him with a card that says "i'm with the God" in order for him to make people believe. He doesn't really need mundane proof in that way.

I'd say that if you want her to be his proof, it would have to be more metaphysical: er innocence and dedication leading to his eventual (if not momentary) divinity. Not sure if thats what you meant, but there is no mundane/worldly reason I can see that he would need more proof than his own words.

Or, if you think Kellhus is bat-shit crazy, then I suppose its possible he wanted a blond bombshell at his side always telling him how awesome he was. Crazy Kellhus would have a big... ego... and he would also like people to stroke it...
One of the other conditions of possibility.

sologdin

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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 01:04:30 am »
there is a passage in II regarding how serwe affcts the micropolitics of interacting with kellhus, as i recall ut.  not proof of divinity, but more sedgewick's homosociality thesis: proof that he is a man worthy of attention for douchey aristocrats.

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 01:17:47 am »
Ok I'll give you that one. But even still, she makes things easier maybe, but he certainly doesn't need her, not as proof anyway. If Moe Sr. could persuade Cnaiur, a super macho barbarian, to be gay, I'm sure Kell could convince a bunch of sissies to do the same.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

locke

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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 01:30:31 am »
Kellhus brandishes serwe's heart as proof to the masses.  After that bit of supernaturalness is when everyone gets the conviction that he is a god incarnate.

and I was also thinking along the metaphysical lines outlined here.  to borrow from a post of mine at westeros:

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Like science, it takes skill and rigorous training to see and understand the physical, on the other hand perhaps it takes instinct and intuition to understand the metaphysical.

If the latter is the case, then Serwe was the first to grasp the Metaphysical-equivalent-of-The-Logos.

But I'm getting ahead of my 'faces or souls, souls or faces' future topic.

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 02:26:06 am »
Can't say I understand where that post was going, but I suppose I could agree with you here then. Some kind of metaphysical proof, but proof then for whom?
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locke

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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 03:37:11 pm »
Kellhus' proof to the holy war

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 05:03:47 pm »
I'd say the Holy War in PoN where not all that Holy. Maybe his proof for another war that Kellhus claims is Holy later on though.
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locke

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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 05:57:16 pm »
I'd say the Holy War in PoN where not all that Holy. Maybe his proof for another war that Kellhus claims is Holy later on though.

I'd say the Drusas Achamian in PoN was not all that Drusas.

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 08:03:06 pm »
Sorry didn't get that  :-\
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2013, 12:51:53 am »
I'd say the Holy War in PoN where not all that Holy. Maybe his proof for another war that Kellhus claims is Holy later on though.

I'd say the Drusas Achamian in PoN was not all that Drusas.

lol

Sorry didn't get that  :-\

I don't either but it made me laugh.

Inraus Ghost

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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2014, 03:54:21 am »


Quote
Everyone knows that Cnaiur uses Serwe as his prize, his proof.  His proof that he is Scylvendi.  His proof that he is heterosexual.

I always thought Cnaiur's "homosexuality" was overblown.  He is attracted to one man (Papa Moe) or arguably two (also Kellhus, who is apparently shockingly like Moe in appearence) in a lifetime, in which he otherwise finds time to rape innumerable women (all presumably attractive) and marry IIRC four wives, one of which, Anissi, he is repeatedly stated to genuinely love enough to reveal his shame too.  That sounds less like a homosexual than a man who was sweet-talked into buttsex he wouldn't have otherwise been interested in while still a vulnerable adolescent.


Are you familiar with the Kinsey scale, with it in mind he very well can be attracted to both women and men. Due to his social conditioning however lusting after the latter is unacceptable and something he suppressed. A truth Moe could see and use.  His rape of Conphas is otherwise completely beyond the pale, recall that the imperials doing such to scylvenndi prisoners was one of the provocations the drove the people to their ill fated attack at Kiyuth. And yes, he is mad but that act otherwise cuts against the grain of his madness. Or my perception of it anyway.

Madness

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« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2014, 12:53:43 pm »
And yes, he is mad but that act otherwise cuts against the grain of his madness. Or my perception of it anyway.

It was all gravy until now.

I'm not sure I grok this - I liked how themerchant put it in the favorite scenes thread.

(click to show/hide)

The steppe is trackless. No act is forbidden, whatever initial taboos Moenghus the Elder used to leverage Cnaiur's soul.
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Inraus Ghost

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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2014, 09:22:55 pm »
And yes, he is mad but that act otherwise cuts against the grain of his madness. Or my perception of it anyway.

It was all gravy until now.

I'm not sure I grok this - I liked how themerchant put it in the favorite scenes thread.

Sorry that was a poorly phrased attempt to preemptively deflect any attempts to use his "madness" as an explanation for Conphas. My preception of him was the need to not be a faggot/weeper, to measure up to his people standards, was the driving force of it. Forced buttsex like the filthy Nansur dogs, not likely.